Sauber C30 Ferrari

[scuderiafan]

Peter Sauber said this car has been racing WITHOUT the Blown diffuser trick pioneered by the RedBull RB7.

This seems odd... In the video found at http://www.f1talks.pl/?p=11635, labeled factory tour 1 (at the 5:19 point), the mechanic is holding the now standard oval (flattened) exhaust collector used to blow the side of the diffusers by everyone else.

Brian

I think what n smikle means is that Sauber has been racing without the off-throttle EBD.

[wesley123]

The blown diffuser isnt only blowing the exhaust pipes in that area, it also makes use of retarded ignition to blow the diffuser. The last they are probably lacking in. Also they only tested this configuration once if i'm correct

[hardingfv32]

You are on the throttle much more than you are off. It might not drive as pleasantly as an off throttle system, but it would be a big benefit none the less. As a driver I will take a 80% benefit with a 20% negative any time.

Brian

[raymondu999]

It will still be a big benefit, of course, but I think the primary issue there is that the system is very unpredictable. The driver has to consciously realize that they have less rear downforce for braking and entry.

[hardingfv32]

The driver has to consciously realize that they have less rear downforce for braking and entry.

Are you implying that some drivers might not have enough attention available to remember this issue? Might be what something that differentiates the great drivers.

Brian

[wesley123]

Obviously downforce isnt constant without the retarted ignition. This means the driver has to drive cleanly, since lifting throttle even a little will cause a huge downforce loss in the rear.

[hardingfv32]

Obviously downforce isnt constant without the retarted ignition. This means the driver has to drive cleanly, since lifting throttle even a little will cause a huge downforce loss in the rear.

The drivers are dealing with change no matter what system is used. Yes, the change is less with an off throttle system, but you do appreciate that it is far from full downforce levels seen while at full throttle. This is not a constant diffuser downforce system.

Brian

[wesley123]

that is what I am saying. Under braking and through cornering is where downforce matters most, and guess when you are off throttle? So they are carrying less downforce through the corners then others will have or even that their potential would be.

[hardingfv32]

that is what I am saying. Under braking and through cornering is where downforce matters most, and guess when you are off throttle? So they are carrying less downforce through the corners then others will have or even that their potential would be.

We have discussed this before in past threads. There a only a few occasions when you are at zero throttle in a turn at tracks used by F1. Mostly full throttle and sometimes part throttle at the turn in into the turns.

Brian

[wesley123]

so with half throttle you arent lacking any downforce?

You are still lacking downforce compared to full throttle, therefore it is far from optimal to blow the diffuser that way.

[hardingfv32]

so with half throttle you arent lacking any downforce?

You are still lacking downforce compared to full throttle, therefore it is far from optimal to blow the diffuser that way.

Your statement are become unclear.

1) Yes, at half throttle you are lacking downforce.

2) You must blow at part throttle on small number of occasions, what other option do you have?
Does "off throttle" not mean activities when the engine is at zero throttle? Is there a misunderstanding?

Brian

[thisisatest]

all cars will vary downforce when you start braking. from high speeds, the nose drops to its minimum, diffuser is practically choked, then probably bounces on braking bumps (mostly mclaren). cars with downforce are so non-linear in their responses by default

[wesley123]

correct, but a car without retarded ignition will in this case lack possible downforce due to less/no throttle thus less exhaust gasses into the diffuser.

I do not know what is not to get about it Less throttle > less exhaust gasses > less downforce > less cornering speed/a car's balance suddenly shifts forward due to the sudden reducement of rear downforce > hard to cntrol car.

The whole point was that Sauber did a really good job with this car still being there in the top 10 on numurous occasions without EBD where the teams around them have the EBD available. As a matter of fact, Sauber doesnt got any EBD at all, the exhaust stayed in the same position all year, they tested the Red Bull style EBD a few times but never really run it. So they have done a really good job to be competitive with the lack of an system that teams like Williams, STR, FI etc. have.

The sauber cars possibly had the biggest development run over the year, sporting lots of completely different front and rear wings and bodywork. Looking forward to see more of them next year

[hardingfv32]

This seems odd... In the video found at http://www.f1talks.pl/?p=11635, labeled factory tour 1 (at the 5:19 point), the mechanic is holding the now standard oval (flattened) exhaust collector used to blow the side of the diffusers by everyone else.

It is clear if you view this video that they have an exhaust outlet shaped just like everyone else's blown diffuser system. Why have a pipe shaped like this otherwise?

What can not be determined is if they employe "off throttle" blowning.

Have you viewed the video? Is this not a correct assumption?

Brian

[raymondu999]

hardingfv32 - don't forget that a lot of slow corners, you usually are braking until the apex with no throttle applied. Another complication is not just in the driving but in setting the car up. If you set the car up like a"normal" car without the exhaust blowing; then when you go on power you will have understeer. If you set the car up with a bit less rear wing, you will be ok on exit as you have the downforce from the exhaust gasses, but on entry and braking your car will be very unstable.