2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

None taken.
If i get a result, i'm not going to manipulate it to get a good feeling. I'm gonna work with what i have now in the corrected calculations. It's low but aroun 540 hp to the flywheel is my guess. MGUH is 200hp.

As to why manufacturers haven't been doing this, i really don't know. I believe back pressure is the issue. I will investigate if that amount of power can be taken off without some issues.

The 31% efficiency is really what it is. That's where the engine is. That's pretty good. This efficiency wont change much from the V8 ICE thermal efficiency. You can look on the total energy unit efficiency to get higher numbers, but the ICE efficiency is 31%.
For Sure!!

User avatar
ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:Ringo, there is obviously something wrong with your engine calculation. There is almost universal agreement from all sources that the compounded output will match or exceed 760 hp. The rules allow only 120 electric kW power. So I suggest you use that figure to calibrate those things that are most shaky in your engine computation. I suspect it is the combustion process which will impact on thermal efficiency.
Those sources are sensationalists. Until we hear one of the engine makers give a figure, then we have a good source.

Look on any turbo 1.6 engine out there on the street, and see if they are going to make over 750hp on 100kg/hr of fuel.
As i said blame it on the fuel rate. :wink:

I'm not saying i'm correct, but i have a foundation. I'm just going to stick with it and see what happens.
For Sure!!

User avatar
pgfpro
75
Joined: 26 Dec 2011, 23:11
Location: Coeur d' Alene ID

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:Pgfpro assumed a turbine efficiency of 70% and a back pressure of 2 psi compared to 85% and 0 or negative pressure by ringo. There you have some difference. There could be also some difference in the compressor and particularly in the temperature assumption making another big chunk of difference in energy budget. I have always thought that F1 will come up with something special in terms of turbine efficiency. The old aero engine had axial turbines with higher efficiency than your across the counter turbo. I was at some stage expecting multiple stages and variable nozzles, but someone put a spanner into the idea. Nevertheless the engineers will do their best to make as much power as they can. For instance Renault reported they will shroud the exhaust headers to stop temp losses between valves and the turbine. It shows that some serious effort is on the way to maximize the potential that Ringo explained.

I'm also asking myself if we will se higher temps due to the direct injection method and spray guided combustion. The old port injected engines will have produced a rich mixture with a lower temperature. Burning stoichiometric or even under stoichiometric will have an impact on temps.

One thing that got me thinking is the news that Ferrari was reducing the size of the spark plug. That makes sense because the cylinder diameter gets smaller. But it may not be the only explanation. If you want to combust spray guided you need space in the middle of your head for the injector and you need space for the spark plug at an angle to it. A smaller spark plug helps with the penalty on valve size that you may have to incurr. If you can make a big step in combustion efficiency you might accept more pumping losses in a force induced engine by getting the spark plug between the intake valves.

http://www.atzonline.com/Article/2895/S ... ction.html

The picture in this source shows how the injection comes from the centre and the ignition comes from the side into the hollow cone of stratified mixture where you usually have the valves.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zTrNSsZvhL ... TrNSsZvhLw

Some features of spray guided combustion, saying that higher temperatures will be reached due to the compression and injection method.
When moving these values to 85% turbine turbine efficiency and 0 muffler back pressure to match ringo's you come up with an increase of 58% calculated waste gated. You guys can change the values too on MatchBot. :wink:
building the perfect beast

User avatar
pgfpro
75
Joined: 26 Dec 2011, 23:11
Location: Coeur d' Alene ID

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

ringo wrote:No it's not really far off.
Compare to the borg warner power output.

As for the MGUH power i know there will be descrepancies, as mentioned before these are purely theoretical.
The calculations aren't off.
Indeed the limitations will be with the physical size of the MGUH and also intertia of the whole system and turbine.

However i'm sure the engine power will be low. The borg worner calculator is using an interesting A:F ratio, when i increase that number from 11.5 the powers goes down, maybe adjustments need to be made on the selection of turbine and also the boost to get it back in the feul flow rate ball park. But i see good correlation with what i have and the Borg Warner site.
The Borg Warner A/F ratio is just there starting point when you click on the simulator program. Its adjustable like all the input values in the top block. So that being said IMO you will be around a 14.7 A/F ratio while running a BSFC of 0.34 = 647HP

I know 4 cylinder race engines that are now in the .36 BSFC and still using fuel for thermal management because of the port injection. So my guess for the F1 engines at .34 is very conservative. Please guys feel free to adjust the values as you think needed. Adjusted turbine ,exhaust and A/F and BSFC below

EDIT forgot to adjust turbine;
http://www.turbodriven.com///performanc ... rsin=92044&
building the perfect beast

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

ringo wrote:Those sources are sensationalists. Until we hear one of the engine makers give a figure, then we have a good source.
Well Luca Marmorini is the head of power train at Ferrari. I would not call him sensationalistic.
http://www.f1technical.net/news/18557
Luca Marmorini wrote:Next year, with an engine having somewhere between 600 and 650 horsepower and an additional 160 horsepower coming from the ERS, if you add the two it’s very similar to what you have today.
If we know anything then it is that horse power from an engine man must be seen as conservative. If Luca says that 600 hp are minimum you can take that to the bank. And do you believe that any competitor would take it as guaranteed that 650 will not be exceeded. I'm actually prepared to bet on it it will happen next year.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

pgfpro wrote: IMO you will be around a 14.7 A/F ratio while running a BSFC of 0.34 = 647HP.
That sounds reasonable considering the Ferrari estimates. I doubt though that your 6.000 rpm assumptions make much sense. A/FR should not be any worse with the compression and combustion we expect. The calc points under 4.000 rpm are probably under the idle revs of the engine.
FiA F1 2014 tech regs wrote:5.6.4 The idle speed control target may not exceed 4,000rpm
I assume the idle will also not be much below 4.000 rpm. 4.000 - 10.500 looks like the logical rev band for operation in best power mode.

Can we say if we finish spooling up before or after 4.000 rpm engine revs?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
pgfpro
75
Joined: 26 Dec 2011, 23:11
Location: Coeur d' Alene ID

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:
pgfpro wrote: IMO you will be around a 14.7 A/F ratio while running a BSFC of 0.34 = 647HP.
That sounds reasonable considering the Ferrari estimates. I doubt though that your 6.000 rpm assumptions make much sense. A/FR should not be any worse with the compression and combustion we expect. The calc points under 4.000 rpm are probably under the idle revs of the engine.
FiA F1 2014 tech regs wrote:5.6.4 The idle speed control target may not exceed 4,000rpm
I assume the idle will also not be much below 4.000 rpm. 4.000 - 10.500 looks like the logical rev band for operation in best power mode.

Can we say if we finish spooling up before or after 4.000 rpm engine revs?
So sorry to confuse everyone. The plot I put up that's under discussion is only plot 6 the 10500 rpm one. The other 1 thru 5 are just Borge Warner's standard entry's when you open the program up.

Sorry once again I thought I wrote that down earlier but must of edit it out when i was doing some spelling and my terrible grammar correction's. LOL :oops:

I had a F1 2014 engine Match Bot from 9500 RPM to 14500 RPM with the phi curve and all the correct fuel rule entrys then my Computer to a dump on me and wasn't able to save it. I will start building another.
building the perfect beast

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

ringo wrote:The 31% efficiency is really what it is. That's where the engine is. That's pretty good. This efficiency wont change much from the V8 ICE thermal efficiency. You can look on the total energy unit efficiency to get higher numbers, but the ICE efficiency is 31%.
You are way out with those figures. There is no way the brake thermal efficiency is going to be below 35% next year for the top engines. Just have a look at the fuel regs and the confirmed hp figures. In fact if Marmorini's high estimates comes true - which I don't doubt - we will be touching 38%.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 28 Jul 2013, 19:35, edited 1 time in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
pgfpro
75
Joined: 26 Dec 2011, 23:11
Location: Coeur d' Alene ID

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

What rpm range would you guys like to see for the MatchBot. There are six rpm ranges that can be entered. They can be any rpm amount apart.
building the perfect beast

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

pgfpro wrote:What rpm range would you guys like to see for the MatchBot. There are six rpm ranges that can be entered. They can be any rpm amount apart.
I think 10 500 to 12 000 Rpm, would be the most interesting
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

3.000, 4.000, 7.000, 10.500, 11.250, 12.000 would all be interesting. I would drop 3.000 if we see that the spool up finishing point is well below 4.000 though.

My estimate would be that beyond 10.500 the injection system starts lagging behind and that this will result to slightly falling AFRs for the points beyond 10.500. 10.500 is already bloody high to run in stratified mode where they almost completely finish compression before they inject.

The higher you rev the faster you have to inject to stay at the same crank shaft angle before TDC. If I remember right they inject between 10° and 5° before TDC.

My estimate is they could run stratified up to 6.000 rpm with 200 bar injection. Now with 500 bar they may have gained a few thousand rpm but not double what they could do some years ago.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
pgfpro
75
Joined: 26 Dec 2011, 23:11
Location: Coeur d' Alene ID

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

xpensive wrote:
pgfpro wrote:What rpm range would you guys like to see for the MatchBot. There are six rpm ranges that can be entered. They can be any rpm amount apart.
I think 10 500 to 12 000 Rpm, would be the most interesting
OK here's 10500 to 13000 I did a 500 rpm increment to keep it somewhat simple. I chose a turbo that has a turbine and compressor of today that's capable of producing these HP numbers. I will also do a larger turbine that will be added next.

http://www.turbodriven.com////performan ... rsin=92044&

Larger turbine to promote better back pressure and make room for MGUH as a boost control unit.

http://www.turbodriven.com////performan ... rsin=92044&
building the perfect beast

User avatar
pgfpro
75
Joined: 26 Dec 2011, 23:11
Location: Coeur d' Alene ID

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

Working on yours WB next.

Bare with me it's going to take more work due to the fuel rule under 10500 rpm and adjust EGT temps for low rpm.

Below 10500rpm the fuel mass flow must not exceed Q (kg/h) = 0.009 N(rpm)+ 5.5.

OK here it is...

http://www.turbodriven.com////performan ... rsin=92044&

As you will notice this is a much smaller turbine. Any larger it will error because its a invalid match turbine to compressor. The reason is the starting point of 4000 rpm. You have to run a very small turbine for the turbo to match at this low 1.64 turbine expansion ratio with a 0.32 calculated percent of waste gating fraction. In fact I should make the turbine even smaller but then you are fighting the high flow high rpm later on.
Last edited by pgfpro on 28 Jul 2013, 20:48, edited 1 time in total.
building the perfect beast

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

Interesting stuff, though I have problem with the imperial units, but I can read 650 Hp from the engine and the turbo-shaft power to fall from 67 to 50 Hp, how much will be left for the MGU-H then. Please xplain where I lost it?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
648
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

ringo wrote: ...... 540 hp to the flywheel is my guess. MGUH is 200hp.
As to why manufacturers haven't been doing this, i really don't know. I believe back pressure is the issue. I will investigate if that amount of power can be taken off without some issues.
You can look on the total energy unit efficiency to get higher numbers, but the ICE efficiency is 31%.
540 crankshaft hp at 31% is very good if there's 200 hp electrically, both from the same fuel (except for the F1 rules)

IF that 200 hp has cost, say, 100 hp crankshaft power this does not matter in principle, there is a real gain in fuel efficiency
as long as we don't tell ourselves that we have gained 200 hp for free (if our real gain is 100 hp)
we don't know what crankshaft power the electric compounding has cost

the Allison T-C had a low CR and its best efficiency when its induction and exhaust pressures were equal (not so for best power)
but could not seperate crankshaft power from turbine-recovered power
the Wright T-C had its best efficiency when the induction pressure was about 0.15 bar relative at sea level
Wright proved the 'no back pressure' argument but kept quiet about the exhaust tuning gain at max power built in to the T-C
and metered in service the recovered power for operational purposes

one would imagine that high exhaust pressure tended to promote detonation (by raising pressure and temperature)
but high exhaust pressure was, even with CR suitably lowered to avoid detonation, the recipe for efficiency
so there was a potential conflict

but 2014 F1s idealised DI, managing combustion by managing injection rate after sparking, would eliminate this conflict
a year ago I suggested that exhaust pressure should be raised for better thermodynamic efficiency (than otherwise) over 10500 rpm
road car GDI can to an extent give to spark ign engines the advantages of diesel engines without the disadvantages
so is 2014 F1, in another way, with inherently more expense and complication
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 28 Jul 2013, 22:01, edited 1 time in total.