2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[wuzak]

The boost required will be reduced from 10,500rpm to 15,000rpm.

But not the air mass. As I have said the frequency of the pulses will increase and the pressure go down. The compressor still needs to feed the same mass flow. How would that look in the power balance? I reckon for lower pressure and the same mass flow the turbine has to go faster as well?

Same mass flow, lower pressure ratio = lower power.

[Tommy Cookers]

if the engine was designed to operate at 14000-15000 would have a much lower induction pressure over atmospheric
than would an engine designed to operate aroune 10500
so the compressor power would be much lower
calculations by ringo and pgf ? have shown this

when I suggested this design route I had not considered that the cars will have at each race what is in effect only 6 useful gears
I was thinking the intent was to use lots of gears, achieving a synthetic CVT effect ie running at near-constant rpm
the greater torque capacity needed by 2014 gearboxes (as shown by expensive) prevents eg a 10 speed box
because of the non-ideal ratios the 14000 engine would suffer from the hard 15000 limit
so would need to be a 13000 rpm-centered design

conventionally we would assume that the reduced compressor power of the higher rpm design is offset by increased friction
but lower compression power encourages the case for independence of compressor drive from recovery turbine
eg mechanical cpmpressor drive, modulated/'spooled up' by independent, smaller, light duty electric motor
independent recovery turbine less likely to mismatch-upset the engine (or ringo ?)

[WhiteBlue]

The boost required will be reduced from 10,500rpm to 15,000rpm.

But not the air mass. As I have said the frequency of the pulses will increase and the pressure go down. The compressor still needs to feed the same mass flow. How would that look in the power balance? I reckon for lower pressure and the same mass flow the turbine has to go faster as well?

Same mass flow, lower pressure ratio = lower power.

Yes, of course you are right. Air demand the same. Power demand down.

[WhiteBlue]

conventionally we would assume that the reduced compressor power of the higher rpm design is offset by increased friction
but lower compression power encourages the case for independence of compressor drive from recovery turbine
eg mechanical cpmpressor drive, modulated/'spooled up' by independent, smaller, light duty electric motor
independent recovery turbine less likely to mismatch-upset the engine (or ringo ?)

It is difficult to understand what you propose. Do you propose independent motor and generator? Wouldn't that increase the weight drastically?

[wuzak]

conventionally we would assume that the reduced compressor power of the higher rpm design is offset by increased friction
but lower compression power encourages the case for independence of compressor drive from recovery turbine
eg mechanical cpmpressor drive, modulated/'spooled up' by independent, smaller, light duty electric motor
independent recovery turbine less likely to mismatch-upset the engine (or ringo ?)

It is difficult to understand what you propose. Do you propose independent motor and generator? Wouldn't that increase the weight drastically?

He, I think, is proposing a conventional turbo with a power recovery turbine downstream driving the MGU. A wastegate would control the turbo, but with the bypass and turbo exhaust directed into the PRT.

[timbo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebpkJXJ7CFo

The top frequency I can find (there is a lot of noise and the quality is not good) is 361Hz, which gives 14440rpm. I viewed few points at 6th gear just before upshift to 7th. So FWIW the revs seem to be at 14500 max.

[ringo]

I am hearing wastegate in the video, in almost every gear.
The sound is quite dead i reckon, pretty much like a street car. Only the gear shifts and throttle response let you understand it's a grand prix engine.

[WhiteBlue]

The sound is dead because the recording was on the dyno with the exhaust piped out at the roof. The dyno room is insulated so that you do not hear the exhaust as much as you would hear it outside. So be prepared to hear a much different sound later.

[pgfpro]

It sounds like the engine makes a VTEC sound in the upper rpm range. It could be the MGUK kicking in?

[WhiteBlue]

At the downshift I hear some kind of grumbling sound sometimes. Do you think that is a waste gate, Ringo? Would that make sense? I would love to see a sound analysis by xxchrisxx or even better by a competitor. Do we have an idea of the lap time they were simulating?

[ringo]

I hear a "whoosh" in the high engine speed range, i feel that's the wastegate. The vacuum cleaner sound.

[WhiteBlue]

It sounds like the engine makes a VTEC sound in the upper rpm range. It could be the MGUK kicking in?

I suspect the MGU never "kicks" in. It would have to be very gently done in order not to stall the turbo. Depending where in the rev band you hear an audible change on acceleration it could be a change in injection timing from late injection/lean to earlier injection with stoichiometric combustion. For this to work they would also have to adjust boost pressure at that point. That may be the discontinuity we hear.

[WhiteBlue]

I hear a "whoosh" in the high engine speed range, i feel that's the wastegate. The vacuum cleaner sound.

Is the whoosh transient and is it in the down shift?

[adrianjordan]

The sound is dead because the recording was on the dyno with the exhaust piped out at the roof. The dyno room is insulated so that you do not hear the exhaust as much as you would hear it outside. So be prepared to hear a much different sound later.

It also sounds a bit dead because the room it was recorded in is not designed to be good for recording add to that the compression of the audio that is inherent when you upload to YouTube and then stream over the internet and you lose a fair bit of oomph (technical term, honest) in the recording.

[rjsa]

I will argue the input data. You are comparing a V6 run recorded for publishing to a v8 run probably recorded from behind the insulated firewall. If you have on track experience you know that what we hear from onboard camera recording is way duller than what you get from the pipes at grand stand distances. Even the 20k+ V10s sounded muted from onboard. Just like that V8 dyno run.

The issue here was the perceived frequency by the spectator and whether it is influenced in pitch by a different exhaust routing. I think it was comprehensively shown that indeed separate exhaust systems for the two banks of a V-engine result to a lower pitch than common routing. In theory this was already known by the testimony of the Renault expert. Your criticism is now addressing the different damping and recording conditions of the two engines. In my opinion damping will not fundamentally change the frequency composition. It will primarily influence the amplitude. Hence I feel your criticism is not applicable. I leave it to our local expert to confirm that point ultimately.

The sound is dead because the recording was on the dyno with the exhaust piped out at the roof. The dyno room is insulated so that you do not hear the exhaust as much as you would hear it outside. So be prepared to hear a much different sound later.

Precious. =D>