2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

[VIZSLA]

and heres martin brundle, whom you all know and love, and one of the biggest defenders of the pirelli tyres up till now:

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... on-a-farce


although i like how the media, and you lot, always ignore 2 fundamental components of this 'sport':
- you can make the rules as random as you like - the teams with the biggest budgets will always win
- the amount of money in the sport is due to advertising, and the cars are primarily billboards for marketing purposes. The teams aren't funded by racing budgets, they are funded by marketing budgets. It is in their best interest to make the sport as safe and as artificial as possible, so it can be totally controlled, and the cars dont damage their bodywork and ruin the stickers.

The momentum builds.

[turbof1]

@Nomore:

2011: Hamilton was chasing down vettel in the final laps with less then a second between them.
2013: Raikkonen tries with a different strategy to reduce the gap between him and Alonso. He ends up more then 12 seconds behind him.

That's your difference.

In 2011 drivers didn't had to hold so much back to keep their tyres alive. Back then tyre lost performance much more gradually until you hit the cliff, the moment you have to pit. So all drivers drove 90-95% and made their pitstops when tyre performance suddenly started to drop massively away. Nowadays you instantly loose from the start a lot of performance.

A 4-stop race can be very enjoyable if the drivers can push during their 5 stints.

[Nomore]

@Nomore:

2011: Hamilton was chasing down vettel in the final laps with less then a second between them.
2013: Raikkonen tries with a different strategy to reduce the gap between him and Alonso. He ends up more then 12 seconds behind him.

That's your difference.

In 2011 drivers didn't had to hold so much back to keep their tyres alive. Back then tyre lost performance much more gradually until you hit the cliff, the moment you have to pit. So all drivers drove 90-95% and made their pitstops when tyre performance suddenly started to drop massively away. Nowadays you instantly loose from the start a lot of performance.

A 4-stop race can be very enjoyable if the drivers can push during their 5 stints.

Wrong. Sorry

First we dont know how much they push, unless you are a race engineer of one of them.

According to Fernando Alonso pushed for 90% for the whole race...and he didnt push 100% because he wasn't under pressure like in Shanghai.
In 2011 the fact that Hamilton finished in 1 sec from Vettel is because RB and Mclaren were in equal pace.
It is not the fault of Ferrari that they are too much strong.

[Nomore]

I can understand for those who are fans of RB or Vettel, but you can't defend the undefendable...beginning a sore loser is a bad thing for the sport.

[fiohaa]

I can understand for those who are fans of RB or Vettel, but you can't defend the undefendable...beginning a sore loser is a bad thing for the sport.

last time i checked, redbull are leading constructors and vettel is top of the drivers.....................

[iotar__]

and heres martin brundle, whom you all know and love, and one of the biggest defenders of the pirelli tyres up till now:

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... on-a-farce


although i like how the media, and you lot, always ignore 2 fundamental components of this 'sport':
- you can make the rules as random as you like - the teams with the biggest budgets will always win
- the amount of money in the sport is due to advertising, and the cars are primarily billboards for marketing purposes. The teams aren't funded by racing budgets, they are funded by marketing budgets. It is in their best interest to make the sport as safe and as artificial as possible, so it can be totally controlled, and the cars dont damage their bodywork and ruin the stickers.

Brundle defender of tyres? Are you kidding? The same Brundle that along with his company lead comical tyre fear mongering last season. In every qualifying/practice, every missed apex, locked up front was down to "no traction from those tyres". Numerous times they made fools of themselves crying how no one would take part in Q3 then silently watched everyone bar couple of cars go out late in session. No acknowledgement, nothing. Of course there was no reflection that cars not running in Q3 in general have little to do with tyre manufacturer but everything to do with teams not giving a f.. about fans. Check Williams and Sauber response from last season about it - simple put it's "competitive advantage" or sth like that.

Even in Barcelona before the season they were starting the hysteria and Symonds and Di Resta had to politely correct them. Brundle sells what he has to sell. It's so simple it's not even funny - without Brits (Hamilton) near the top, viewers number goes down and salesmen are crying "tyranny of tyres" or some nonsense like that. What about tyranny of engine farts, flapping front wings, knee to the hole in the chassis, tyranny of top teams in the board of director of F1, influencing technical regulations or profits sharing by Ecclestone? Sky type of pseudo journalism belongs in the gutter.

[Nomore]

I can understand for those who are fans of RB or Vettel, but you can't defend the undefendable...beginning a sore loser is a bad thing for the sport.

last time i checked, redbull are leading constructors and vettel is top of the drivers.....................

Yep they are leading, but as they are profesionist they know why they are leading, and also how much they lead will last.

Do you really think that had they guaranteed to maintain the lead will they protest the tyres ?? they didn't do it in 2011with the same exact situation (read my previous messages). Amway is not now that matter who is leading but in the end of Brasil.

[turbof1]

@Nomore:

2011: Hamilton was chasing down vettel in the final laps with less then a second between them.
2013: Raikkonen tries with a different strategy to reduce the gap between him and Alonso. He ends up more then 12 seconds behind him.

That's your difference.

In 2011 drivers didn't had to hold so much back to keep their tyres alive. Back then tyre lost performance much more gradually until you hit the cliff, the moment you have to pit. So all drivers drove 90-95% and made their pitstops when tyre performance suddenly started to drop massively away. Nowadays you instantly loose from the start a lot of performance.

A 4-stop race can be very enjoyable if the drivers can push during their 5 stints.

Wrong. Sorry

First we dont know how much they push, unless you are a race engineer of one of them.

According to Fernando Alonso pushed for 90% for the whole race...and he didnt push 100% because he wasn't under pressure like in Shanghai.
In 2011 the fact that Hamilton finished in 1 sec from Vettel is because RB and Mclaren were in equal pace.
It is not the fault of Ferrari that they are too much strong.

Except that if both are equal in pace, the chasing driver cannnot nowadays drive in dirty air of the car in front for a few laps. He would shred his tyres. That did not happen to Hamilton (his tyres did lost a bit of performance because of it, but not much).
We know that they could push much more in 2011 then 2013; drivers actually weren't speaking in terms of % they drove.
It's not Ferrari's fault that they had the better pace in Barcelona, that's correct. Still does not change anything to what I said. So:

I'm right. Sorry

[fiohaa]

Brundle defender of tyres? Are you kidding?

a couple of races back in malaysia, in commentary, this year, he said 'See pirelli could have brought durable tyres here but we would have had only 1 or 2 pitstops and it would have been boring, this is fantastic'

thats a direct quote. from commentary. i wish i had the video recording to back it up to put on youtube.
hes said similar things about the tyres for the past 2 years.

it is also in their BEST INTERESTS NOT to criticise any aspect of the sport, and make it look as exciting and enjoyable as possible. they are running a pay per view channel and they'd want to drum up excitement and the glamorous nature of racing, not draw attention to any kind of 'farcical' aspects. I'd argue that the situation is the total opposite of what you make it out to be. The fact that sky are willing to talk about it and discuss it is commendable.

the irony is Sky do more to bring this to peoples attention than anyone else, including BBC who remain as pathetic as ever and dont like any discussions on anything.
What have sky got to gain from talking about it? any press is good press? i doubt it, i doubt people would be willing to pay for the f1 channel and watch after hearing about all this.

brundles got nothing to sell accept viewers. by speaking out against current f1 he is actively damaging that. so clearly his motives aren't as compromised as you think, are they?

[VIZSLA]

Brundle defender of tyres? Are you kidding?

a couple of races back in malaysia, in commentary, this year, he said 'See pirelli could have brought durable tyres here but we would have had only 1 or 2 pitstops and it would have been boring, this is fantastic'

thats a direct quote. from commentary. i wish i had the video recording to back it up to put on youtube.
hes said similar things about the tyres for the past 2 years.

it is also in their BEST INTERESTS NOT to criticise any aspect of the sport, and make it look as exciting and enjoyable as possible. they are running a pay per view channel and they'd want to drum up excitement and the glamorous nature of racing, not draw attention to any kind of 'farcical' aspects. I'd argue that the situation is the total opposite of what you make it out to be. The fact that sky are willing to talk about it and discuss it is commendable.

the irony is Sky do more to bring this to peoples attention than anyone else, including BBC who remain as pathetic as ever and dont like any discussions on anything.
What have sky got to gain from talking about it? any press is good press? i doubt it, i doubt people would be willing to pay for the f1 channel and watch after hearing about all this.

The fact that so many are taking Pirelli's post race statements at face value surprises me. They're coming off a near debacle and are trying to divert and distract from the serious issues they face.

[Nomore]

Except that if both are equal in pace, the chasing driver cannnot nowadays drive in dirty air of the car in front for a few laps

Then re-watch Fernando Alonso from lap 1 to lap 13 was right behind Vettel and Rosberg and pushing like hell.

That did not happen to Hamilton (his tyres did lost a bit of performance because of it, but not much).

Yes and the same thing happened to Fernando Alonso as he didn't lose performance staying behind Rosberg.

We know that they could push much more in 2011 then 2013

We dont know nothing, what we know is who wins and who finish 2nd, 3d...22

drivers actually weren't speaking in terms of % they drove.

Yes Ferrari's drivers aren't a big mouth...

It's not Ferrari's fault that they had the better pace in Barcelona, that's correct. Still does not change anything to what I said

It change a lot, that's why they didn't have a pressure from a 1 sec driver.

[turbof1]

@nomore: I'm not going to continue this. It's dwelling off from the main point (that the 2011 race and the 2013 race were a night and day difference, fact) and getting tedious. If you want to keep discussing this, just pm me (and please use a bit more proper english!).

The fact that so many are taking Pirelli's post race statements at face value surprises me. They're coming off a near debacle and are trying to divert and distract from the serious issues they face.

It's a divide and conquer operation isn't it? They did the same with the exploding tyres, putting on debris which is almost impossible to verify.

The thing is, PR is only going to help you so much before it starts to damage you. They've lost a big chunk of credibility here.
Next races things will probably settle down. Monaco is low downforce; cornering speeds will be low and thus stress on the tyres will be much less. Canada is more about stop 'n go corners. Silverstone will be the real test if they adapted.

[Nomore]

And here we go... i find an article (http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Pire ... 60785.html) yesterday of Hembery when he says we have the same tyres as in 2011 just that the car are more advanced now...the article is in french

C'mon guys just don't defend the undefendable

[Nomore]

If you want to keep discussing this, just pm

There is nothing to discuss in private. The others can also read and share their opinions. You just responded to one of my messages.

If you think that i'm wrong, please give me facts that i'm wrong not opinions.

[turbof1]

And here we go... i find an article (http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Pire ... 60785.html) yesterday of Hembery when he says we have the same tyres as in 2011 just that the car are more advanced now...the article is in french

C'mon guys just don't defend the undefendable

They are not the same tyres! you translated it incorrectly.

Les voitures sont beaucoup plus efficaces aérodynamiquement cette année, nous sommes revenus au niveau de 2011, quand il y avait le diffuseur soufflé. Notre nouvelle structure de pneus est aussi plus exigeante avec les gommes. Combinez ces deux choses et des gommes plus tendres et cela explique la différence par rapport à ce que nous avons fait dans le passé."

I'm guessing you went wrong at the fat-marked sentence . He says "we are back at the level of 2011". The level does not point at the tyres, but at the downforce level. He further says that next to the increased DF levels, the new structure of the tyres also push to compounds.

The original interview, of which the one you linked is translated to french, can be found here:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzTuhnmBeZ8[/youtube]

There is nothing to discuss in private. The others can also read and share their opinions. You just responded to one of my messages.

If you think that i'm wrong, please give me facts that i'm wrong not opinions.

You are neither giving facts, and giving opinions based on faulty translations. I'm sorry, but I'm not getting into a discussion where one tries to bring his opinion as a fact. I've tried to bring my arguments reasonably well.