Seven Formula One teams have demanded clarity and more information about the private agreement that was announced by the FIA and Scuderia Ferrari over their power unit investigation.
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The FIA need to think hard if they are not able to police certain rules.... if that is truly the case those rules which cannot be policed should be thrown out.
But the question is. Who says that the FIA are not able to police rules?.
They admitted that:
“The FIA was not fully satisfied but decided that further action would not necessarily result in a conclusive case due to the complexity of the matter and the material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach
They weren't able to determine legality or illegality due to the complexity, which means they failed to police a specific rule here.
Come on man, save the melodrama! There is no stain on their brand other than in the minds of those who hate Ferrari and wish that to be the case.
No. Everyone who has followed F1 for any time knows that Ferrari has been treated differently to other teams. This is a stain that has been with the sport for decades.
The FIA need to treat all teams equally. No extra cash, no vetoes, no "special agreements" when rules are broken. Until that happens the stain of Ferrari International Assistance will remain.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.
Two things got me thinking. The 3rd party involved and gentlemen’s agreements.
Remember last year when there was discussion amongst drivers about a gentlemen’s agreement not to overtake when in position for a fast qualifying lap? Well, this agreement was said to not be a rule and no longer obeyed and of course the drivers were right: it never was a rule. As long as everyone obeys there is a status quo and everybody gains equally.
Filing an official complaint is the gentlemen’s rule amongst teams. They all cheat and, as long as it is proportional, nobody gets hurt and we all live happily ever after.
However, RBR announced that if Ferrari would continue with their assumed illegal power unit they would file an official complaint this year. My guess is that Ferrari found out during winter testing that this is not a loose threat.
Now, what happens if RBR file an official complaint? They become the 3rd party. That is not in the interest of Ferrari.
As the Fia were already investigating their power unit, Ferrari proposed to settle and change their power unit. They will simply not use their trickery, and have same power as their customer teams for the coming month. Hell, they even got a great deal out of it! Their customer teams were not able to exploit the trickery in the first place.
So, as announced by Ferrari, they will have a new power unit due Barcelona timeframe to recover lost grounds.
Pure speculation of course.
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“The FIA was not fully satisfied but decided that further action would not necessarily result in a conclusive case due to the complexity of the matter and the material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach
They weren't able to determine legality or illegality due to the complexity, which means they failed to police a specific rule here.
That is a huge admission, that I think most in the general public don't fully grasp. I mean if a local police department release a statement like this a lot of heads would role, and they would role very quickly.
Following accusations from rival teams (but with no team having protested). The governing body (FIA) said it wasn’t confident that it could prove FERRARI had been in breach of the rules. (Material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach).
Which also means it can't prove it didn't breach the rules. And, crucially, Ferrari wasn't able to prove it hadn't broken the rules.
That last bit is the bit that most people, including all Ferrari fans, are ignoring.
If Ferrari could prove they were legal, there wouldn't be an issue would there? They would demonstrate it and the FIA would say ""they're legal". That they can't do so doesn't mean they're legal, it means they're probably illegal but the prosecutor (the FIA) couldn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that they were cheating.
The distinction is subtle (actually it isn't) but it's key to legal proceedings.
The FIA need to think hard if they are not able to police certain rules.... if that is truly the case those rules which cannot be policed should be thrown out.
But the question is. Who says that the FIA are not able to police rules?.
They admitted that:
“The FIA was not fully satisfied but decided that further action would not necessarily result in a conclusive case due to the complexity of the matter and the material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach
They weren't able to determine legality or illegality due to the complexity, which means they failed to police a specific rule here.
I don't get it guys, maybe i need to read the rules but if the governing body which is FIA in our case, cannot declare something legal or illegal then what's the point if RB or anyone file a request? Ferrari is obligated to show to them their engine? Or the court can do the work that FIA was unable to do without revealing how Ferrari engine works? Because in the end it's Ferrari secrets and property in engine design and they will never reveal anything.
To me its a case like the egg did the chicken or the chicken did the egg. Nothing will be revealed and nothing ever in past was revealed. Just we will have the moaning from the other manufacturers but eventually they will go on.
One aspect of this affair that people need to understand is that the FIA's administration of the F1 rules is not, in some respects, a normal legal process governed by one or more country's laws. It is a sporting process, where the FIA retains the sole right to rule on whether a team is in compliance.
Teams, when they sign up for Formula 1, have to accept the technical and rules governance processes of the FIA, and also accept the commercial arrangements in their contract with Liberty F1. Generally those rules call for an independent arbitration process if there is a dispute between teams, or between the teams and the FIA.
A good example of that is the Contract Recognition Board, which exists to resolve disputes between teams over the contracts of drivers and other team personnel. An independent arbitrator hears the cases of both sides, and makes a ruling, and the teams' rules of participation in the sport require them to accept the ruling. Acceptance is not optional, and they do not get to run off to anothe country crying foul. The only exception to that might be an issue where the EU becomes involved, which has happened in the past. As a supra-national body controlling many countries where F1 races or operates, the EU is a special case.
The rules are carefully written (from the FIA's perspective ) to prevent teams or individuals from running off to a country's legal system and commencing litigation if they are unhappy with the outcome of an event. If a team was able to take the FIA to court every time something happened and they were penalized under the F1 sporting or technical regulations, F1 governance would be impossible.
The FIA, however, like most sporting bodies, does have lawyers, and the statements about Ferrari are clearly using legal terms very carefully. The process is, like most legal processes, designed to be fair and transparent, since without those objectives being met, the process will soon start to look arbitrary and capricious. In this case, however, there are clearly commercially sensitive issues that have led to little to no information being revealed.
The fact that sporting governance is not a standard legal process needs to be taken into account when considering aspects like evidence. The burden of "beyond reasonable doubt" for example, does not exist, because this is not a criminal law process. The burden of proof need not even be "preponderance of the evidence", which is the level of proof normally required in a civil case. The FIA could, if it wanted to, simply say "circumstantial evidence meeting our subjective idea of proof", and if the teams signed up for that when they joined the championship, they are obliged to accept that if they want to stay in the sport.
(That's not what I am suggesting happened here, by the way. Multi-national corporate supporters of F1 do want to see a process that is not a kangaroo court, something more like a standard legal process).
So legal arguments about whether Ferrari is innocent do have a certain amount of merit, but ultimately it comes down to the conclusion of the FIA, which is not bound by any country's legal system. It is a sporting body.
The FIA need to think hard if they are not able to police certain rules.... if that is truly the case those rules which cannot be policed should be thrown out.
But the question is. Who says that the FIA are not able to police rules?.
I don't get it guys, maybe i need to read the rules but if the governing body which is FIA in our case, cannot declare something legal or illegal then what's the point if RB or anyone file a request? Ferrari is obligated to show to them their engine? Or the court can do the work that FIA was unable to do without revealing how Ferrari engine works? Because in the end it's Ferrari secrets and property in engine design and they will never reveal anything.
To me its a case like the egg did the chicken or the chicken did the egg. Nothing will be revealed and nothing ever in past was revealed. Just we will have the moaning from the other manufacturers but eventually they will go on.
Whoah! Nobody is saying Ferrari needs to show their PU to the competition, or to reveal any specifics of their PU to said competition! I think what is desired, is enough expertise at the FIA to clearly determine if something is within rules or a breach of rules.
And you might be right, the "magnificent seven" (which I still find quite fittingly called ) might drop this. They might also not. We'll see.
Two things got me thinking. The 3rd party involved and gentlemen’s agreements.
Remember last year when there was discussion amongst drivers about a gentlemen’s agreement not to overtake when in position for a fast qualifying lap? Well, this agreement was said to not be a rule and no longer obeyed and of course the drivers were right: it never was a rule. As long as everyone obeys there is a status quo and everybody gains equally.
Filing an official complaint is the gentlemen’s rule amongst teams. They all cheat and, as long as it is proportional, nobody gets hurt and we all live happily ever after.
However, RBR announced that if Ferrari would continue with their assumed illegal power unit they would file an official complaint this year. My guess is that Ferrari found out during winter testing that this is not a loose threat.
Now, what happens if RBR file an official complaint? They become the 3rd party. That is not in the interest of Ferrari.
As the Fia were already investigating their power unit, Ferrari proposed to settle and change their power unit. They will simply not use their trickery, and have same power as their customer teams for the coming month. Hell, they even got a great deal out of it! Their customer teams were not able to exploit the trickery in the first place.
So, as announced by Ferrari, they will have a new power unit due Barcelona timeframe to recover lost grounds.
Pure speculation of course.
If it happens, that will be great. RB will then have to provide the proofs of their complaint.
That is really interesting since we will discuss based on facts. And now the fact now is that, according to the FIA, Ferrari 2020 PU is legal.
“The FIA was not fully satisfied but decided that further action would not necessarily result in a conclusive case due to the complexity of the matter and the material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach
They weren't able to determine legality or illegality due to the complexity, which means they failed to police a specific rule here.
That is a huge admission, that I think most in the general public don't fully grasp. I mean if a local police department release a statement like this a lot of heads would role, and they would role very quickly.
It actually happens quite often.
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake
And now the fact now is that, according to the FIA, Ferrari 2020 PU is legal.
That is not what the FIA said:
The FIA was not fully satisfied but decided that further action would not necessarily result in a conclusive case due to the complexity of the matter and the material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach.
Again, I don't want another round of "proof" "innocence" or "guilty", but the FIA was clear on this. A settlement is never an exoneration.
Whoah! Nobody is saying Ferrari needs to show their PU to the competition, or to reveal any specifics of their PU to said competition! I think what is desired, is enough expertise at the FIA to clearly determine if something is within rules or a breach of rules.
To me this is the fundamental issue. Remove Ferrari’s name from it and call it Team A, then I think everyone can agree that the rules makers should be able to enforce said rules.
ARTICLE 12.1 BREACH OF RULES
12.1.1 Any of the following offences, in addition to any
offences specifically referred to previously, shall be deemed
to be a breach of these rules:
....
12.1.1.f Any words, deeds or writings that have caused moral
injury or loss to the FIA, its bodies, its members or its
executive officers.
....
According to you, can the seven teams document fall under 12.1.1.f ?
Last edited by Xwang on 05 Mar 2020, 22:28, edited 1 time in total.
But but but who will decide in the end that the engine is legal? Endless discussions here with 1 fundamental problem, only FIA can declare that and they cannot so?
RB cannot say nothing or anyone because if it shows facts they will have problem from corporate espionage.
) might drop this. They might also not. We'll see.