2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Wouter
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Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
09 Aug 2023, 19:57
Wouter wrote:
09 Aug 2023, 19:15
Just_a_fan wrote:
09 Aug 2023, 14:32

.
Ah, a rhetorical question then. Cool.
.
No it isn't a rhetorical qustion. It is a real question and the answer to that is in the article.
Can fish swim?
Can birds fly?
Is rain wet?
Those are rhetorical questions. Questions where everyone knows already the answer/ you don't expect an answer. :wink:
.
You asked who she was whilst knowing the answer. That's a rhetorical question.

If you wanted others to find out who she is, putting "find out who she is here:" might have been a better option.

(And I point this out only as a helpful suggestion to a fellow forum member, not as a personal attack (before I get accused of such a thing by a mod)).
.
You are right Sir. You are always right. :roll:


I did not ask the question to myself but I asked other people who don't know who she is and they could find the answer in the link.
Who is she? ... You can find here the answer
The Power of Dreams!

101FlyingDutchman
101FlyingDutchman
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Joined: 27 Feb 2019, 12:01

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I don’t think there is anything wrong with the Mercedes technical team.

They clearly went down the wrong path at the start of ground effect cars which as it is now well documented, wasn’t helped by quite large correlation issues. Meaning the theoretical performance number compared to the on track one number was rather large.

The only thing they might be accused of, is keeping/maintaining this path for way too long. As noted by and pushed for by LH. Who clearly saw a blind alley from a mile away!
Of course in a cost cap era it’s hard to switch as you can’t afford a B-car as the cap just doesn’t allow it but keeping the design for ‘23 has proven costly.

I have no doubt though that correlation issues have largely been solved and that the team now has a distinct understanding of this ground effect formula. I don’t think the same mistakes will be made for the ‘24 car. I also sincerely hope they don’t. Love a titanic tussle before LH retires!

Farnborough
Farnborough
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Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 14:15

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
09 Aug 2023, 21:34
I don’t think there is anything wrong with the Mercedes technical team.

They clearly went down the wrong path at the start of ground effect cars which as it is now well documented, wasn’t helped by quite large correlation issues. Meaning the theoretical performance number compared to the on track one number was rather large.

The only thing they might be accused of, is keeping/maintaining this path for way too long. As noted by and pushed for by LH. Who clearly saw a blind alley from a mile away!
Of course in a cost cap era it’s hard to switch as you can’t afford a B-car as the cap just doesn’t allow it but keeping the design for ‘23 has proven costly.

They must already have a pretty decent shopping list in preliminary design phase of new monocoque to substantially pitch them into consistency of front running performance.

I have no doubt though that correlation issues have largely been solved and that the team now has a distinct understanding of this ground effect formula. I don’t think the same mistakes will be made for the ‘24 car. I also sincerely hope they don’t. Love a titanic tussle before LH retires!
A lucid assessment, I agree with.

They've every chance of a good car 2024 in my view.......IF...... tbey don't let themselves get stuck in the same "individual expression" technical backwater they have perpetuated from W13 to W14.

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ValeVida46
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Joined: 23 Feb 2023, 13:36

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/news/mike ... ed-the-w14

Interview with 2 of the cooks(Allison and Elliott).
How would you both summarise our season so far, from a technical standpoint?
James Allison: "We started off with high hopes. Initially our position relative to the front of the field took some getting used to, but the subsequent reaction by the Team has been admirable. Quite early, we got a handle on what had gone wrong and have steadily been putting it right since."

Mike Elliott: "Last year we made gradual progress through the season. We got ourselves into a position where we had some confidence over the winter, hoping to start the season in a better place. To find out we weren't was a kick in the teeth. But it's been good to see the recovery path. If you look where we started and where we are now, compared to Aston and Ferrari, we have made good progress."

Mike, how's it been for you taking on more of an overseeing, future-thinking role? What has been your focus?
ME: "For me, moving into the CTO role has been an opportunity to step back and look at the wider organisation. I've been looking at the technology, the processes and asking where we can improve."

James, for you, what's it been like getting more involved again in the day to day and work on the existing car?
JA: "Being a Technical Director, everything is right in your face. Even when things are going well, you are regularly being bashed in the nose by things you didn't see coming. It can be tiring. I have always liked that punchiness though and how it involves being in amongst your team-mates more intensely. I enjoy that. I like the fight and it's a role that I'm probably better suited to."


How do you assess how our development journey has been?
JA: "The development journey hasn't been that different to any other year. Trying to add performance to the car with all the tools you have available. Finding more downforce, trying to not make the car heavier, making it handle better. The rewarding thing is we are not just adding bread and butter performance. We are also collectively assessing what we got wrong with our decisions last year. These were things we understood within the first few weeks of running the car. Since then, a major focus has been putting them right. I find that quite enjoyable and I know it's been rewarding for everyone in the technical team."


ME: "We're engineers and are interested in the technology. As Niki famously said, you learn more when you lose than when you are winning. I feel like it was a big learning journey through last year, and into this year. The hope is we've uncovered the learnings we need now, and we can keep developing in one direction. Sitting in my position, to look at things through a slightly wider lens, it's nice to see the learnings. You then illuminate another bit of the path, and it gets clearer."



JA: "Although we made great strides last year, 2023 presented all the Teams with a rule change that offered some protection against bouncing. Over the winter we faced a choice. Go aggressive and trade the bouncing protection in the rule change for performance, or take a more cautions route and steer clear of the sort of porpoising that wrecked our season last year. We chose the cautious path, knowing that it would be less painful to correct if we were wrong. The story of our year so far has been mostly about finding out that we had been too cautious and making the changes to correct that".


What have been the biggest gains we've found with the W14?
JA: "Simply putting downforce on the car in the medium to high-speed area of the aero map. That downforce is found closer to the ground than we had developed the car in the first instance."

And what are the improvement areas we still need to work on?
JA: "Bread and butter downforce is always a good thing. We are also trying to make the car more reassuring for the drivers when they initially turn in. It feels too reactive. And then when they get to the apex they have the opposite problem, where we want it to bite at the front and it doesn't. It's unstable when you first turn the wheel and then annoyingly dead when they get to the apex. We want it the other way around. That's what we are working on."


How excited are we to get back after the shutdown and continue to make progress, and fight for P2 in the constructors?
ME: "Everybody has been pushing hard in the factory, so the break is important. We'll get more out of everyone too when they are back refreshed. When we return, our focus will be on two things. First, making sure we are learning everything we can and feeding it into next year's car. And then the fight for P2 in the championship. While we want to be winning titles, P2 is still important for everyone in the factories. It's important to show progress from last year and end the year strongly. We want to take the momentum into the winter.

JA: "At the start of the year we were fourth quickest, looking at our customers who were beating us, and that was frustrating. Ferrari were beating us too. Little by little we are gradually putting them behind us. Everything is playing a part in it. From strategy to engineering, reliability, manufacturing and the drivers who are metronomic in their ability to turn half-opportunities into points. Although it falls short of our initial aims, securing P2 nevertheless really matters for all of us. Especially in the second half of the season when the tone will be shifting to the W15."




How much focus is now on the W15 and beyond?
ME: "Our aim is to win championships. Unfortunately, we are not in that position this year. But we want to be next year. We've got to get that balance right between getting all the learnings we can with our current car and trying to put most of our effort into next year's car."

JA: "At this stage of the year the wind tunnel is heavily focused on 2024. Large chunks of the drawing office, vehicle dynamics, manufacturing for long-lead time production items are starting to gather their skirts. From the summer break onwards, next year's car is where the largest call is answered. But that also gives opportunities for the W14 too."

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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JA: "Although we made great strides last year, 2023 presented all the Teams with a rule change that offered some protection against bouncing. Over the winter we faced a choice. Go aggressive and trade the bouncing protection in the rule change for performance, or take a more cautions route and steer clear of the sort of porpoising that wrecked our season last year. We chose the cautious path, knowing that it would be less painful to correct if we were wrong. The story of our year so far has been mostly about finding out that we had been too cautious and making the changes to correct that".
That's interesting. And also sensible. Easier to edge the car down and find performance than have to jack it up like last year and struggle to regain the losses.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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denyall
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Joined: 02 Mar 2023, 19:46
Location: California, USA

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ValeVida46 wrote:https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/news/mike ... ed-the-w14

Interview with 2 of the cooks(Allison and Elliott).
How would you both summarise our season so far, from a technical standpoint?
James Allison: "We started off with high hopes. Initially our position relative to the front of the field took some getting used to, but the subsequent reaction by the Team has been admirable. Quite early, we got a handle on what had gone wrong and have steadily been putting it right since."

Mike Elliott: "Last year we made gradual progress through the season. We got ourselves into a position where we had some confidence over the winter, hoping to start the season in a better place. To find out we weren't was a kick in the teeth. But it's been good to see the recovery path. If you look where we started and where we are now, compared to Aston and Ferrari, we have made good progress."

Mike, how's it been for you taking on more of an overseeing, future-thinking role? What has been your focus?
ME: "For me, moving into the CTO role has been an opportunity to step back and look at the wider organisation. I've been looking at the technology, the processes and asking where we can improve."

James, for you, what's it been like getting more involved again in the day to day and work on the existing car?
JA: "Being a Technical Director, everything is right in your face. Even when things are going well, you are regularly being bashed in the nose by things you didn't see coming. It can be tiring. I have always liked that punchiness though and how it involves being in amongst your team-mates more intensely. I enjoy that. I like the fight and it's a role that I'm probably better suited to."


How do you assess how our development journey has been?
JA: "The development journey hasn't been that different to any other year. Trying to add performance to the car with all the tools you have available. Finding more downforce, trying to not make the car heavier, making it handle better. The rewarding thing is we are not just adding bread and butter performance. We are also collectively assessing what we got wrong with our decisions last year. These were things we understood within the first few weeks of running the car. Since then, a major focus has been putting them right. I find that quite enjoyable and I know it's been rewarding for everyone in the technical team."


ME: "We're engineers and are interested in the technology. As Niki famously said, you learn more when you lose than when you are winning. I feel like it was a big learning journey through last year, and into this year. The hope is we've uncovered the learnings we need now, and we can keep developing in one direction. Sitting in my position, to look at things through a slightly wider lens, it's nice to see the learnings. You then illuminate another bit of the path, and it gets clearer."



JA: "Although we made great strides last year, 2023 presented all the Teams with a rule change that offered some protection against bouncing. Over the winter we faced a choice. Go aggressive and trade the bouncing protection in the rule change for performance, or take a more cautions route and steer clear of the sort of porpoising that wrecked our season last year. We chose the cautious path, knowing that it would be less painful to correct if we were wrong. The story of our year so far has been mostly about finding out that we had been too cautious and making the changes to correct that".


What have been the biggest gains we've found with the W14?
JA: "Simply putting downforce on the car in the medium to high-speed area of the aero map. That downforce is found closer to the ground than we had developed the car in the first instance."

And what are the improvement areas we still need to work on?
JA: "Bread and butter downforce is always a good thing. We are also trying to make the car more reassuring for the drivers when they initially turn in. It feels too reactive. And then when they get to the apex they have the opposite problem, where we want it to bite at the front and it doesn't. It's unstable when you first turn the wheel and then annoyingly dead when they get to the apex. We want it the other way around. That's what we are working on."


How excited are we to get back after the shutdown and continue to make progress, and fight for P2 in the constructors?
ME: "Everybody has been pushing hard in the factory, so the break is important. We'll get more out of everyone too when they are back refreshed. When we return, our focus will be on two things. First, making sure we are learning everything we can and feeding it into next year's car. And then the fight for P2 in the championship. While we want to be winning titles, P2 is still important for everyone in the factories. It's important to show progress from last year and end the year strongly. We want to take the momentum into the winter.

JA: "At the start of the year we were fourth quickest, looking at our customers who were beating us, and that was frustrating. Ferrari were beating us too. Little by little we are gradually putting them behind us. Everything is playing a part in it. From strategy to engineering, reliability, manufacturing and the drivers who are metronomic in their ability to turn half-opportunities into points. Although it falls short of our initial aims, securing P2 nevertheless really matters for all of us. Especially in the second half of the season when the tone will be shifting to the W15."




How much focus is now on the W15 and beyond?
ME: "Our aim is to win championships. Unfortunately, we are not in that position this year. But we want to be next year. We've got to get that balance right between getting all the learnings we can with our current car and trying to put most of our effort into next year's car."

JA: "At this stage of the year the wind tunnel is heavily focused on 2024. Large chunks of the drawing office, vehicle dynamics, manufacturing for long-lead time production items are starting to gather their skirts. From the summer break onwards, next year's car is where the largest call is answered. But that also gives opportunities for the W14 too."
Thanks for adding article content here.

I'm really excited for the W15.

Looked like, and this interview confirms, that Merc swung the risk pendulum way to far towards risky with the W13 and way to far towards safe with the W14. If the W15 is in the middle they might have a chance.

I still think P1 in WDC and WCC is going to be tough but hopefully the mighty Merc machine can make it happen.

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dans79
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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denyall wrote:
10 Aug 2023, 17:04
I still think P1 in WDC and WCC is going to be tough but hopefully the mighty Merc machine can make it happen.
It will all come down to how limited they are this year by a fundamentally flawed monocoque.
201 105 104 9 9 7

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ringo
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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They look like Mr. McGoo blindly feeling the ground to find his eye glasses.
It shows their tools are not as accurate as redbull when it comes to finding the ground effect sweet spot. They have to rely on the track running.
Things are not looking too bad for 2024, but the impression I get is that they will still be behind a refined red bull even if they play all the design and engineering cards right. They would need some kind of unique advantage that red bull doesn't have to beat them with their 2 years of ground effect and DRS refinement.
Last edited by ringo on 12 Aug 2023, 23:04, edited 1 time in total.
For Sure!!

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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At the risk of being banned for making suggestions to fellow forum members, any chance we can not bulk quote the same quote in post after post?

It makes it f'ing difficult to follow a thread on a phone.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Stu
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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“Fundamentally flawed” is quite a strong term.
If RB are ignored, or the MB package was 0.25% better, the MB would be the class of the field.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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Stu
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
11 Aug 2023, 00:38
...
Agreed!
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

j_ste
j_ste
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Joined: 20 Jun 2023, 02:40

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Stu wrote:
11 Aug 2023, 07:36
“Fundamentally flawed” is quite a strong term.
If RB are ignored, or the MB package was 0.25% better, the MB would be the class of the field.
That doesnt mean it isnt fundamentally flawed.

Tiger Woods won the masters by 12 as a 21 year old. Saw his swing and decided he needed to revamp it because it was flawed
Good results dont mean you are doing the correct things.

If Aston didnt have a nepo issue, they would be streaks ahead of Mercedes. Points wise. For example.

Farnborough
Farnborough
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Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 14:15

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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j_ste wrote:
11 Aug 2023, 12:50
Stu wrote:
11 Aug 2023, 07:36
“Fundamentally flawed” is quite a strong term.
If RB are ignored, or the MB package was 0.25% better, the MB would be the class of the field.
That doesnt mean it isnt fundamentally flawed.

Tiger Woods won the masters by 12 as a 21 year old. Saw his swing and decided he needed to revamp it because it was flawed
Good results dont mean you are doing the correct things.

If Aston didnt have a nepo issue, they would be streaks ahead of Mercedes. Points wise. For example.

I feel, "fundamentally resitricted concept" would accurately label it. But then most of them are in pure performance measure until proven they can beat the benchmark.

Of course we never usually get to see the naked limitations of a "lead" car, whichever the season we are in. Closest recently being 2021 where two different concept were fully exposed in head to head exhibition.

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dans79
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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j_ste wrote:
11 Aug 2023, 12:50
Good results dont mean you are doing the correct things.
Yea thats was my point.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/merce ... /10506536/

Allison
"We are also trying to make the car more reassuring for the drivers when they initially turn in. It feels too reactive.

"And then when they get to the apex they have the opposite problem, where we want it to bite at the front and it doesn't. It's unstable when you first turn the wheel and then annoyingly dead when they get to the apex. We want it the other way around. That's what we are working on."
Just_a_fan and I discussed this privately.

I thought it could be an issue with floor flow control in certain types of yaw conditions. He thought it could be because of the center of pressure moving around under breaking.

It could be both it could be neither, but i'd bet my next paycheck it's heavily related to the monocoque design, and the constraints thats puts on the rest of the car.
201 105 104 9 9 7

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I stated multiple times, earlier in the season, before the incredible surge of teams upgrading their side pods, that they were a critical area of the car.

The crux of my argument was, it’s not the bodywork shape in and of itself that is key, but rather, how critical that bodywork is in this regulation set in tying together the most important performance-generating bits of the car.

I felt the RB concept and the progress made by McLaren and AM after copying key features, validated that theory.

And then Dan Fallows hammered that home with this:

“There's no doubt that the sidepods are essentially flow-tuning features. They are things that condition the flow to the rear of the car, but it also helps the floor to work as well.

Although in itself maybe the actual performance improvements of the bodywork is not so big on its own, it helps everything else to work. So it's quite a big feature of the car.”