Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Sayeman]

I've read today that Honda is considering a complete makeover for next season with the token system removed, maybe even ditching the compact packaging and adopting a Merc split turbo.
Has that really been said by Honda staff or is it the product of an unreliable news website?

Button confirmed it some time ago.

[AmateurExpert]

I've read today that Honda is considering a complete makeover for next season with the token system removed, maybe even ditching the compact packaging and adopting a Merc split turbo.
Has that really been said by Honda staff or is it the product of an unreliable news website?

From the first article that GoranF1 linked above, the direct quote from Hasegawa is:

“Of course for next season we can change anything,” he told Motorsport.com. “We still haven’t decided the exact specification and layout, but it is better to have a more wide open area of design.”

When asked if this could end up with being an all-new engine design, he said: “Yes. Of course. It is possible.”

To me that's just a statement of the obvious. Given the removal of token restrictions and the car rule changes next year, it'd be foolish for any team to not conduct a comprehensive reassessment of performance targets and the subsequent car & engine architectures necessary to achieve them.

If I remember correctly Button said that Honda engineers had told him it was difficult to find improvements with the current design. While it doesn't mean it's impossible to improve with the current architecture, it's fair to assume that they're giving serious consideration to alternatives as Hasegawa has said "We would like to do everything to improve our engine".

[GoranF1]

AMuS

All tokens to be spent in Canada and SPA...no HCCI(JTI?) until 2017?

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... gn=Formel1

[wuzak]

So the engine upgrades that Honda currently have ready could be mature enough to improve the engine up to Ferrari level. The context of the interview being "why aren't Honda delivering upgrades right now?" - he's explaining that they do have upgrades ready (to allay fears that they've sat on their hands all this time), but that they are delaying the upgrade decision in order to optimise the upgrade selection as they can't simply apply them all and as they get them.

I don't think that says "the only reason why the engine isn't beating Ferrari is due to the token constraint".

Hasegawa's explanation is more that they're constrained in the amount of upgrades that can be applied (to the areas that they have tokens available for), rather than the amount of gain they can achieve - the latter is up to Honda's development maturity and upgrade choices. The later they wait, the more upgrades they'll have ready and the better the gain they'll get with each area of token spend.

You could also argue that half of Ferrari's token spend from 2015 to 2016 was in relocating parts such as the MGUK for packaging reasons and the other half on performance upgrades.

In other words, they too have been constrained by the token spend as to what they could upgrade.

[godlameroso]

You can end up wasting 12 tokens redesigning the same crappy component multiple times, better to develop it away from the car and then slap it on once you have it perfected instead of wasting time hoping your spaghetti sticks to the wall.

By the looks of it, they'll be upgrading the ERS for Canada, and then the ICE for Spa/Monza. I hope they're able to improve their economy.

[Sasha]

New combustion(pre-chamber,multi-stage injectors and piston) are not ready. Looks like Spa would be the soonest.

Any major PU changes(like new TC) would cause a domino effect(intercooler,other coolers and etc would need to be re-engineered/moved).Very hard to do during in season and in a very short time frame.

ERS improvement might be the easy and best route for the 14 tokens this year. Will not be the best but will be able to get points every race and maybe a few podiums.

[Thunder]

I've read today that Honda is considering a complete makeover for next season with the token system removed, maybe even ditching the compact packaging and adopting a Merc split turbo.
Has that really been said by Honda staff or is it the product of an unreliable news website?

Hasegawa stated a complete redesign could happen.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... ne-738518/

“Of course for next season we can change anything,” he told Motorsport.com. “We still haven’t decided the exact specification and layout, but it is better to have a more wide open area of design.”

When asked if this could end up with being an all-new engine design, he said: “Yes. Of course. It is possible.”

[NL_Fer]

New combustion(pre-chamber,multi-stage injectors and piston) are not ready. Looks like Spa would be the soonest.

multi stage injector to control fuel between main and pre chamber?

[Andres125sx]

When asked if this could end up with being an all-new engine design, he said: “Yes. Of course. It is possible.”
To me that's just a statement of the obvious. Given the removal of token restrictions and the car rule changes next year, it'd be foolish for any team to not conduct a comprehensive reassessment of performance targets and the subsequent car & engine architectures necessary to achieve them.

To me this is a typical "no news so let´s invent one" case.

It´s journalist who asked about the posibility to re-design the whole PU. The reply was obviously that yes, it is posible, as it is a bankrupt for McLaren or Ferrari winning the title this season

But the journalist got his headline, Honda might consider a complete re-design. Only smoke, but not from Honda, but from a journalist, as usual

[a1b2i3r45]

When asked if this could end up with being an all-new engine design, he said: “Yes. Of course. It is possible.”
To me that's just a statement of the obvious. Given the removal of token restrictions and the car rule changes next year, it'd be foolish for any team to not conduct a comprehensive reassessment of performance targets and the subsequent car & engine architectures necessary to achieve them.

To me this is a typical "no news so let´s invent one" case.

It´s journalist who asked about the posibility to re-design the whole PU. The reply was obviously that yes, it is posible, as it is a bankrupt for McLaren or Ferrari winning the title this season

But the journalist got his headline, Honda might consider a complete re-design. Only smoke, but not from Honda, but from a journalist, as usual

You have to consider this also http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/156 ... ken-system

" if we didn't have the tokens and we were just adding more parts we could achieve that level I think. But currently to achieve this level we need more than 40 or 50 tokens. "- Yusuke Hasegawa

Total PU is 60 tokens, so more than 40 or 50 tokens is in another words, re-designing the whole PU.

[diffuser]

It looks like at the moment... a complete whole new PU for 2017.

With Honda F1 Boss stating they need 45 tokens to get their PU to match the top PU in the series explains why.

So for the moment they are stuck because they only have 14 tokens left this year.

They are testing different upgrades(mis-matching them,improvements with existing TC,moving Compressor to the rear,new MGU-H,new CC) at the moment.

My guess for upgrades...... new CC 100% ,new MGU-H 50% or new Turbine to better match new CC 50%
I think they can't do new MGU-H and new Turbine with new CC,must pick one or the other because of the few remaining tokens.

Sasha could you explain why moving the compressor to rear makes more sense than moving it to the front?

[wuzak]

It looks like at the moment... a complete whole new PU for 2017.

With Honda F1 Boss stating they need 45 tokens to get their PU to match the top PU in the series explains why.

So for the moment they are stuck because they only have 14 tokens left this year.

They are testing different upgrades(mis-matching them,improvements with existing TC,moving Compressor to the rear,new MGU-H,new CC) at the moment.

My guess for upgrades...... new CC 100% ,new MGU-H 50% or new Turbine to better match new CC 50%
I think they can't do new MGU-H and new Turbine with new CC,must pick one or the other because of the few remaining tokens.

Sasha could you explain why moving the compressor to rear makes more sense than moving it to the front?

It's easier?

[Sonador]

I think it has to do with the amount of tokenspending
To move the TC to the back is not that big off a redesign hence less token spendage ....

[GoranF1]

It looks like at the moment... a complete whole new PU for 2017.

With Honda F1 Boss stating they need 45 tokens to get their PU to match the top PU in the series explains why.

So for the moment they are stuck because they only have 14 tokens left this year.

They are testing different upgrades(mis-matching them,improvements with existing TC,moving Compressor to the rear,new MGU-H,new CC) at the moment.

My guess for upgrades...... new CC 100% ,new MGU-H 50% or new Turbine to better match new CC 50%
I think they can't do new MGU-H and new Turbine with new CC,must pick one or the other because of the few remaining tokens.

Sasha could you explain why moving the compressor to rear makes more sense than moving it to the front?

Wazari told me a while ago...front compressor is not possible whit 31 chassis...

[diffuser]

That came to me a little later ...

If you put the compressor on the front then everything has to move back to make room for the compressor. So we'd have to find room somewhere in the middle and that would be too much work to do during the season.