2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[NL_Fer]

With 2022 rules being so restrictive, all cars will be identical by 2023...

Now more electrical BS from 2025's PU as well...

There goes my favorite sport...

Electrification is the way of the future, isn't it?

Like I said, I think the 2025 power unit regulations should focus on allowing up to 500kg or even 750kg or 1000kg allowance for a battery pack. In a plug-in hybrid like a Grand Prix car, the battery pack is the major component of the vehicle.

Say if you don't want to raise the car weight too much, it could be a 325kg battery pack, and a 1095kg minimum racing weight for the plug-in hybrid F1 car before fuel. Unlimited battery capacity, unlimited electrical power output, and let them have at cramming as much energy density in that 325kg as possible!

The qualification rounds with a fully charged battery should be just mighty! The racing could become very tactical and fascinating as to how you dish your electrical energy out over a 305km Grand Prix.

Whether that is paired with a detuned 1.6 single-turbo MGU-H 90-degree V6 with less fuel flow, I guess it doesn't matter that much and would be fine. "Complexity is best" in plug-in hybrids.

The current 25kg battery pack seems meagre, so there is a huge opportunity to step it up to something like 325kg and increase the electrical component of the Grand Prix car's energy store.

You could even set a cap on the power output of the ICE, to make the ICE side of things easier for newcomers like Cosworth, Gibson (or even Audi or Porsche)? So capped ICE, unlimited electric -- the opposite to the current power units.

1095kg they could homologate the cars for NASCAR and compete on the ovals….

[mzso]

Perhaps a modular approach where the naturally-aspirated ICE and ERS are separate modules, both with cost-cap customer prices, and suppliers of ICE and ERS respectively must be willing to supply the whole field when requested. To remove the unfortunate situation of Red Bull being unable to obtain Mercedes power units.

That would leave little point in developing own power units. Might as well just use a standard power unit.

A peppy NA motor (even if it was just a little 1.6L V6) could be supplemented by front and rear electric regeneration, a large battery pack (say 40-60 kWh?) and unrestricted electric power.

Interesting. How about the notion of a pre-charged 150-250 kWh battery that would slowly be used throughout the entire 305km Grand Prix? I imagine a 1500-1800kg minimum weight should make this feasible -- making Grand Prix cars a true plug-in hybrid? The ICE would top up the power output to 1000hp, or 2000hp to account for the increased weight.

Wouldn't that be a better step towards proper hybridisation and increased road-relevant electrification? It is typical for road going electric performance cars to have such kerb weighs, so why not a Grand Prix car as well?

Or how about a maximum battery pack weight of 300-500kg (and unlimited electric power), so it would be up to the teams or suppliers to get the energy density as high as possible?

I don't think doubling the weight of cars would be very popular, or even the weight of a 40-60kWh battery pack. And inefficient NA engines are pretty unrealistic at this moment.

If they're serious about moving toward electrification the ICE needs to go and fuel cells need to come.

But I don't think that's gonna happen. We'll probably get more storage and more K power. Maybe with a freeze or standardization of H. So they can say "look we store and use more electricity", but nothing will change noticeably.

Unless Horner's yapping proves effective, than probably they'll muck around with the exhaust and/or number of cylinders to tweak the sound.
I don't think it's past them to come up with something like a reflexive horn loudspeaker for an exhaust...:

[Stu]

Interesting choice of an angle, presumably just for packaging reasons?

Maybe that 120 version could play a distinct role if the MGU-H is abolished, which seems to be very likely to happen?

If the MGU-H would be abolished, why not the turbo(s) as well?

A peppy NA motor (even if it was just a little 1.6L V6) could be supplemented by front and rear electric regeneration, a large battery pack (say 40-60 kWh?) and unrestricted electric power.

I don’t see them stepping away from the H unit.

It also makes it too difficult for Gibson, AER and others to supply independent F1 power units. Surely competitive independent units from Red Bull and others has to be fundamental to the 2025 PU regulations?

Perhaps a modular approach where the naturally-aspirated ICE and ERS are separate modules, both with cost-cap customer prices, and suppliers of ICE and ERS respectively must be willing to supply the whole field when requested. To remove the unfortunate situation of Red Bull being unable to obtain Mercedes power units.

The electric part would remain very small without the mgu-h. Exhaust recovery is much larger than brake recovery at the moment.

Interesting. How about the notion of a pre-charged 150-250 kWh battery that would slowly be used throughout the entire 305km Grand Prix? I imagine a 1500-1800kg minimum weight should make this feasible -- making Grand Prix cars a true plug-in hybrid? The ICE would top up the power output to 1000hp, or 2000hp to account for the increased weight.

Wouldn't that be a better step towards proper hybridisation and increased road-relevant electrification? It is typical for road going electric performance cars to have such kerb weighs, so why not a Grand Prix car as well?

Or how about a maximum battery pack weight of 300-500kg (and unlimited electric power), so it would be up to the teams or suppliers to get the energy density as high as possible?

And then they create a true objective for the sprint race format….
Pure electric power, saving the ICE for the big prize!

Even at 1500kg they would be massively lighter than road-going electric vehicles; as much as I like the idea of racing cars being lightweight (600kg - please!!!), they would still be considered lightweight for electric vehicles.

[mclaren111]

https://www.pitpass.com/70231/New-engin ... ays-Horner

Horner:
"I think it has to address the emotion, the sounds, and yes, of course, it has to tick the sustainable boxes," he added. "But, I think it still needs to be entertaining, otherwise, we should all go and do Formula E.

Some Common Sense at last...

100% Biofuels more than covers "sustainability" issues....

[jjn9128]

Gotta agree with this take. Hybrids are the worst of both worlds.

[Jolle]

so, instead of speculating what the new formula is going to be, we're again at the point that everything sucks?

[mclaren111]

Gotta agree with this take. Hybrids are the worst of both worlds.

Amen Brother...

[JordanMugen]

Gotta agree with this take. Hybrids are the worst of both worlds.

But isn't the energy density of batteries too low? (For me, Formula E cars are too slow, there are too many mickey-mouse regeneration zones instead of proper classic flowing circuits, and the races are too short -- just IMO.)

So a compromise of a large battery (some 100-250 kWh but still less than the ~675 kWh of the current liquid fuel) and unlimited electric power, supplemented by combustion drive (or a generator system if preferred) could be the best compromise to allow for Grand Prix car racing for 305km at a reasonable turn of pace?

And then they create a true objective for the sprint race format….
Pure electric power, saving the ICE for the big prize!

This is a brilliant idea!

A great balance to account for the batteries only being able to complete 100km at full lick, but to still highlight and push the development of electric technology in Formula One.

[JordanMugen]

100% Biofuels more than covers "sustainability" issues....

Do you mean corn-based ethanol fuel, or something more modern?

Synfuels seem poorly regarded for now from what I've heard (I don't know anything about them though). Some people in the energy industry seem to consider them vapourware or a con.

[mclaren111]

Gotta agree with this take. Hybrids are the worst of both worlds.

But isn't the energy density of batteries too low? (For me, Formula E cars are too slow, there are too many mickey-mouse regeneration zones instead of proper classic flowing circuits, and the races are too short -- just IMO.)

So a compromise of a large battery (some 100-250 kWh but still less than the ~675 kWh of the current liquid fuel) and unlimited electric power, supplemented by combustion drive (or a generator system if preferred) could be the best compromise to allow for Grand Prix car racing for 305km at a reasonable turn of pace?

Motorsport is All about the Senses... Sight, Sound, Smell & Atmosphere...

Lets get back to these Fundamentals...

[JordanMugen]

Motorsport is All about the Senses... Sight, Sound, Smell & Atmosphere...

Lets get back to these Fundamentals...

I like all those things! Heck my everyday runabout is an old-fashioned high-revving high-pollution econobox hatchback (without the econo part!) -- the Honda K20A stopped meeting emissions back in 2010. Here in Australia there is no CO2 road tax, so we merrily (or ignorantly, foolishly, untenably and anti-socially?) drive around in massively polluting gas guzzlers like sporty hatchbacks, turbocharged 4.0L Ford Falcons and 6.2L V8 Holden Commodores.

But I'm not sure a return to lax policies on motor vehicles emissions is realistic, particularly for the European Union where Formula One racing is based. It would be in direct contradiction to the Euro 7 emissions regulation roadmap and reduction in fleet average CO2 roadmap that has been outlined by the EU.

The EU rules and CO2 taxation, plus the high fuel excise, especially in places like France and Denmark, do a really good job of restricting such ultra-polluting gas guzzlers to only the super-rich... I can't imagine an average Dane would dream of driving a 4.0L or 6.2L ICE personal vehicle, yet here in Australia such guzzlers are quite common.

Anybody can buy an old 3.5L Toyota Aurion (or Kluger), old 4.0L Ford Falcon (or Ford Territory) or 3.6L Holden Commodore in Australia -- those are just the basic family car models! The tax penalty on such a vehicle here in Australia is essentially none (I guess that is why the Ford Falcon always had much larger engines than the Ford Granada or Scorpio?).

Sadly, a return to 3.5L or 3.0L ICEs in Formula One racing seems but a pipe dream.

[mclaren111]

Motorsport is All about the Senses... Sight, Sound, Smell & Atmosphere...

Lets get back to these Fundamentals...

I like all those things! Heck my everyday runabout is an old-fashioned high-revving high-pollution econobox hatchback (without the econo part!) -- the Honda K20A stopped meeting emissions back in 2010. Here in Australia there is no CO2 road tax, so we merrily (or ignorantly, foolishly, untenably and anti-socially?) drive around in massively polluting gas guzzlers like sporty hatchbacks, turbocharged 4.0L Ford Falcons and 6.2L V8 Holden Commodores.

But I'm not sure a return to lax policies on motor vehicles emissions is realistic, particularly for the European Union where Formula One racing is based. It would be in direct contradiction to the Euro 7 emissions regulation roadmap and reduction in fleet average CO2 roadmap that has been outlined by the EU.

The EU rules and CO2 taxation, especially in places like France and Denmark, do a really good job of restricting such ultra-polluting gas guzzlers to only the super-rich... I can't imagine an average Dane would dream of driving a 6.2L personal vehicle, yet here in Australia such guzzlers are quite common.

Yip... Gone are the days of Common Sense...

Everthing is a Money Making Racket Now...

[JordanMugen]

Yip... Gone are the days of Common Sense...

Everthing is a Money Making Racket Now...

I see you are from South Africa. I take it you have lax emissions regulations, lax CO2 taxation and lax fuel excise policies there too?

So at least you can drive down the road in your 4.0L W8 VW Passat (or preferred brand of gas guzzler with oversized engine), and have a car that sounds better than a Grand Prix car...

[Zynerji]

100% Biofuels more than covers "sustainability" issues....

Do you mean corn-based ethanol fuel, or something more modern?

Synfuels seem poorly regarded for now from what I've heard (I don't know anything about them though). Some people in the energy industry seem to consider them vapourware or a con.

Probably because it is counter to their narrative, and future funding...

[WaikeCU]

Motorsport is All about the Senses... Sight, Sound, Smell & Atmosphere...

Lets get back to these Fundamentals...

I like all those things! Heck my everyday runabout is an old-fashioned high-revving high-pollution econobox hatchback (without the econo part!) -- the Honda K20A stopped meeting emissions back in 2010. Here in Australia there is no CO2 road tax, so we merrily (or ignorantly, foolishly, untenably and anti-socially?) drive around in massively polluting gas guzzlers like sporty hatchbacks, turbocharged 4.0L Ford Falcons and 6.2L V8 Holden Commodores.

But I'm not sure a return to lax policies on motor vehicles emissions is realistic, particularly for the European Union where Formula One racing is based. It would be in direct contradiction to the Euro 7 emissions regulation roadmap and reduction in fleet average CO2 roadmap that has been outlined by the EU.

The EU rules and CO2 taxation, especially in places like France and Denmark, do a really good job of restricting such ultra-polluting gas guzzlers to only the super-rich... I can't imagine an average Dane would dream of driving a 4.0L or 6.2L ICE personal vehicle, yet here in Australia such guzzlers are quite common.

In Belgium they are aiming at having full EV company fleets by 2026. Don't know if they'll reach it, but I've noticed a lot of EV cars being available on the list of company cars we are able to order. It's easy for us, because the largest part of the sum our employer pays for the car. Think of others who don't have that benefit. EV cars ain't cheap, but the government at least set the goal for more EV cars.

Back to F1, there's no real focus to that. It's maybe just not viable to race EV cars at this point of the development of EV cars. We're just limited by range.