McLaren MP4-12C

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

That said, I tend to agree that too much perfection is not necessarily a good thing. A supercar like the NSX is the perfect example of this. It seemed to tick all the boxes but still it did not go down in history as the best of its era.

I do not think this will be a problem with the Macca though...

slighty OT but....

Im Sorry but I think NSX will have far greater echos through history than the MP4-wotsit.
It was the first truly desirable Japanese Supercar, and had the chassis balance a Ferrari could only dream of. Come to think of it, I cant think of anything That had the Price/Handling/Looks formula so spot on during its time.
It was in Production for 15 years, and was left relatively untouched come facelift time, apart from the additions of more torque and power.

That it did not go down as the best of its era? Ummm Heres what Mclaren legend Gordon Murray has to say: ""The moment I drove the NSX, all the benchmark cars—Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini—I had been using as references in the development of my car vanished from my mind."

Praise comes no higher.

And if you want pedigree, a certain Ayrton Senna was invlolved in the development of the car, along with Bobby Rahal.

The reason the NSX did not sell(different from being the best of its era) was the people with money at the time(think yuppies and large mobile phones) Baulked at forking out 50k on a car with a big H on the boot and bonnet. So it boils down to greatness being percieved in sales, or that of the car itself. The market, for whatever reason, did not get the NSX.


The NSX easily makes it into my top 5 (supercars)cars of all time.

[Onch]

The market, for whatever reason, did not get the NSX.

Completely agree with what you are saying.

And - to me - this whatever reason is that it was too perfect. Too clinical. It does not feel like a aupercar.
The market still doesn't get it by the way. Look how much 355's go for compared to NSX's.

I believe the technology used on the McLaren (carbon chassis, 'active' arb etc.) will ensure that it will not have the same fate.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The market, for whatever reason, did not get the NSX.

Completely agree with what you are saying.

And - to me - this whatever reason is that it was too perfect. Too clinical. It does not feel like a aupercar.
The market still doesn't get it by the way. Look how much 355's go for compared to NSX's.

I believe the technology used on the McLaren (carbon chassis, 'active' arb etc.) will ensure that it will not have the same fate.

I like the MP4 12C I really do, but it doesnt have any soul at all. It is a tool, an incredibly good one. I wonder wether Mclaren will get respect instead of adulation with the MP4 12. I mean looking at the car, it dosnt carry the same drama as a 458 or SLS. But then being as good as it is, does it need to look fancy?

To me, the NSX had soul. The problem with the NSX is the people it was aimed at couldnt get over the badge. Simple as that.

[Pup]

Well we don't expect passion from McLaren. At least we expect it to be bottled up, correctly labeled, and filed away for emergency use.

Personally, I was surprised at how swoopy the 12c is - to me it doesn't look like something that came from McLaren. And I don't like the fact that every curve needs to mimic the McLaren swoosh. Seems overdone.

What it does look like to me is that it was designed specifically to look very much like a Ferrari.

[Just_a_fan]

I mean looking at the car, it dosnt carry the same drama as a 458 or SLS. But then being as good as it is, does it need to look fancy?

The phrase "talk softly and carry a big stick" comes to mind for me when I look at the McLaren. The 458 and the SLS etc. are all about image with the rest being secondary. The -12C is about performance first and foremost. It is the epitome of form following function. That is what makes it special. Focus, pure and simple.

As for the NSX, part of the problem was the badge and part of it was the engine. Technically outstanding (VTEC etc) but it lacked torque and wasn't really that powerful compared to the opposition. It was competent in all areas but didn't make the driver think "wow, this is a supercar". The -12C certainly won't suffer from that fate.

The NSX shared it's parentage with the Accord and the Civic etc. The -12C shares it's bloodline with F1 (in the way that Ferraris do) and it also has the F1 in it's family tree.

Don't get me wrong about the NSX though - I've seriously looked at buying one but there are a number of potential expensive maintenance issues that put me off.

[segedunum]

The market, for whatever reason, did not get the NSX.

That's the only point worthy of discussion. You don't need to look far to see why. Put simply, the NSX was something lifted straight out of Total Recall or Back to the Future because the Japanese just didn't know what to do. That might be what people thought cars were going to look like in the future but no one wanted to buy them. You wouldn't think it was a 'supercar' by looking at it. Soul? Hardly.

I think we can all subjectively agree that the 12C looks a million times more attractive then the NSX. I'd have one over a SLS or a 458 in a heartbeat. It looks more than good enough to get its foot in the door and once you've got that the word of mouth over how good it is to drive spreads. Get it in a distinctive orange with some decent wheels on it and you'll have people looking right, left and centre. "It's not a Ferrari. What the hell is it?" It looks as though Ferrari are going to be dragged kicking and screaming into changing their production processes and materials over the next few years as well.

The SLS? Well, as many people have tried to remind us around here the SLS is supposed to be competing in a different market. Not on price. Is it worth it to spend £10,000 less then the 12C or the 458? Not in a month of Sundays. The SLS was going to be £120K, then £130K, then £140K........ The thing also looks like it has been introduced to the under side of a crash barrier at high speed while it was in the US, with handling to match. Americans should buy them at any rate......

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So you lambast Mercedes for attempting to dumb down their car in order to have wider appeal, yet forget Honda went the other way and you lambast them still.

Subjectively speaking Honda can make an MP 12C, McLaren cannot make an NSX.
And comparing the 2, with 22 years and a huge gap in price and audience, you are in effect comparing an apple with a pear.

[xpensive]

I would rather lambast Mercedes for bringing a baseball-bat to a gunfight, the SLS has the image of Norbert Haug.

Thinking they could just recycle the Viper-concept and get away with it, Doh?

From what I can tell from images revealed, the MP4-12C will come out in a class of it's own, an engineering delight.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

And the SLS will outsell it 5 to 1 rendering your reasoning invalid.

Unless Mclaren are there to only impress and not sell cars....

[xpensive]

And the Ford F-150 will outsell the SLS 1000:1, what's your point?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

And the Ford F-150 will outsell the SLS 1000:1, what's your point?

Can you crack 0-62 in 3.6 seconds in the F150, or do the nurburgring in 7m.40 seconds? The SLS may not have the final teenth of performance of the Mclaren, but if you want to ostracize it for that and call it overweight or a glorified Viper, you should be aware that it cost nearly exactly the same as the macca, and is going to trounce it in the market...where it counts.

That my dear X is the point.

[xpensive]

Perhaps so, still with the image of Norbert Haug, if that's the way you wanna come aross. Not xactly 2011 if you ask me.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Perhaps so, still with the image of Norbert Haug, if that's the way you wanna come aross. Not xactly 2011 if you ask me.

Very very technical post X, how about we revert back to eulogising about how good the MP4 12C actually is, rather than have you stampede on Mercedes and Haug again?

[Just_a_fan]

you should be aware that it cost nearly exactly the same as the macca, and is going to trounce it in the market...where it counts.

That my dear X is the point.

Actually, I think you both miss the point. McLaren have been quite explicit in outlining their sales objectives for the -12C. They're not saying how many more or less than someone else they're looking to sell. They have set a specific number.

And as Ron said when asked about competition with Ferrari's 458, people who are buying these cars will probably have one of each anyway. Same with the SLS. These guys are serial buyers and don't stop at one or even two toys. They buy cars that excite them and they can get excited about different types of car so they might buy a hi-tech sports/supercar e.g. -12C or 458 and a "muscle car" GT e.g. SLS or 599. (Indeed, the 599 is probably the SLS's competitor in the traditional sense, not the -12C.)

This segment isn't like the "poor people" segments. "Poor people" don't generally buy a 5 series and an E-class and an A6. They get one of them and then something else in a different segment (albeit often by the same manufacturer e.g. 5 series and X5, A6 and Q7).

[humble sabot]

You know what guys. A lot of camparison with its contemporaries, to my mind falls flat. If anything, from the standpoint of presence it's so much more like a badged up and productionised Ascari. They really have huge shoes to fill as the F1 was something a of a watershed not to mention much more elegantly proportioned, it was the symbol of gestalt of its time the same way the Veyron is now. The MP4-12c no matter how good it is -and by the fact that it's faster than the F1, it sure is good- will never be all that much of anything; Forgettable.

SLS, NSX, ...different strokes, for different folks, 458 will sell just fine thank you, effectively the replacement for the supercar of the masses, lost count of how many 360s and 430s i've seen.