Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

[segedunum]

if anything, bring up back the video and tell us exactly where you see mark move. I bet you can't find it.

Mark clearly looks in his left hand mirror early on, moves the car slightly to the left to block but doesn't move over anywhere near enough to stop Vettel from going through. He then tries to hold his position for reasons which I know not what, because it isn't going to help him regain the place, and the line he is on is not parallel to the side of the track. It doesn't matter whether he doesn't move the wheel or not. It was a stupid and pointless way to defend a position, but not really a surprise. Mark has form.

Vettel did no juking of any kind. He was clearly going through and his slight move to the right was in preparation for braking for the corner where he would have imagined that Webber would be around the outside and where he can't see where Webber is.

Once again, it's caused by a driver's inability to accept that he's lost the position.

[segedunum]

Mark had already given Vettel the fair amount of space, but Vettel still wanted more...

He gave him no space whatsoever which is why he tried to keep the car straight, but in reality he was driving diagnonally towards the corner. For some reason Mark felt that Vettel wasn't going to brake and turn into the corner and couldn't imagine what was going to happen.

Webber could have given more space to avoid contact but that would not change the fact that Vettel was in error...

Given that Vettel was in front, no.

[andrew]

if anything, bring up back the video and tell us exactly where you see mark move. I bet you can't find it.

Here you go:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqwx7w6i1HQ[/youtube]

Watch the white line to the left. Webber is definately getting closer to it. Webber comes out of turn 12 at 1.40 then starts to move accross at 1.42.

[andrew]

Mark had every right to hold that line why should he move? vettle should have went further past before cutting in, he did it far to early.

Secondly, Vettel was clearly faster and the following corner was his. webber should have conceded and tried to repass Vettel at turn 1.

[autogyro]

This one is going to run and run.
IMO the RBs were sand bagging and not racing flat out.
This was mainly because of reliability issues and to keep Vettel off the kerbs.
This reduced pace backed Vettel into Hamilton and overtaking pressure from him.
Webber was content to fend off and conserve his car.
There were two reasons for Vettels overtake attempt, one was the frustration of fending off Hamilton.
The second reason will echo around the pit lane for ages.
The talk is that the RB team told Webber to dial down his engine and told Vettel to dial his up.
On the three laps leeding up to the overtake Vettels lap speed increased markedly and his top speed is said to have increased as well (although I cannot confirm this without telem).
Vettel made an obviously easy pass move (or so it looked).
The rest was needle and a silly mistake by both drivers IMO.
What is interesting, is that there does seem to be a preference for Vettel in the RB team based on this incident and the chit chat.

[Terrible3]

I know everyone will think differently but I really think this was a racing incident with both at fault. Vettel was squeezed into a pretty small space on the left when overtaking Mark. He was clearly ahead of mark coming into the section of track to set up for the next turn. This is where it got messy. Going by the book, Mark did nothing wrong and held a single line. Vettel went to turn in right to set up for the turn and ran into the stationary Webber. So from this view you would hold vettel at fault and thus this is how MB and DC saw the event unfold.

The flip side of the coin is how EJ saw the event, and for the first time ever I have to agree with him. I think that Mark should be viewed as holding a slight block (per say/forcing a undesirable line) on Vettel since the next turn required the pair to move to the right to make the turn. Mark was crafty and did not change paths in an attempt to hold SV to the extreme inside making it impossible for SV to take a proper line and braking point into the next turn leading to a highly likely repass. My question would be had they not collied and MW continued to hold the same line and forced SV to run off in the entry to the next turn who would be at fault? I think this is way SV was clearly so mad at Mark. To Vettel he had track position and Mark attempted to hold him to the inside.

Anyways I will reserve my full judgement to a later time when I can look over some video fotty.

[clarkiesyeah]

If i am not mistaken, herr Vettel has had previous regarding suddenly moving right when not safe to do so. My mind drifts back to his very cynicle move on Hamilton in the pits a few races back.

Its time someone had a word in his ear. I've lost a lot of respect for the impetious little toerag.

Great display of how team-mates should race from both mclarens, thats the difference between actual champions and mere pretenders. =D>

[Terrible3]

He then tries to hold his position for reasons which I know not what, because it isn't going to help him regain the place, and the line he is on is not parallel to the side of the track. It doesn't matter whether he doesn't move the wheel or not. It was a stupid and pointless way to defend a position, but not really a surprise. Mark has form.

Vettel did no juking of any kind. He was clearly going through and his slight move to the right was in preparation for braking for the corner where he would have imagined that Webber would be around the outside and where he can't see where Webber is.

Once again, it's caused by a driver's inability to accept that he's lost the position.

After watching the video feed I am with you on this one. Mark held a path intentionally to compromise SV next turn. Some will call it racing, but that that point I feel that Vettel had the track position and so Webber should have set up a proper pass (ala LH vs. JB) rather than fighting for a lost position. Its a shame at SV is loosing his hopes at a tittle week in and week out from reliability issues and now this.

[andrew]

He then tries to hold his position for reasons which I know not what, because it isn't going to help him regain the place, and the line he is on is not parallel to the side of the track. It doesn't matter whether he doesn't move the wheel or not. It was a stupid and pointless way to defend a position, but not really a surprise. Mark has form.

Vettel did no juking of any kind. He was clearly going through and his slight move to the right was in preparation for braking for the corner where he would have imagined that Webber would be around the outside and where he can't see where Webber is.

Once again, it's caused by a driver's inability to accept that he's lost the position.

After watching the video feed I am with you on this one. Mark held a path intentionally to compromise SV next turn. Some will call it racing, but that that point I feel that Vettel had the track position and so Webber should have set up a proper pass (ala LH vs. JB) rather than fighting for a lost position. Its a shame at SV is loosing his hopes at a tittle week in and week out from reliability issues and now this.

+1. Excellent assesment of the situation chaps. =D>

[vall]

if anything, bring up back the video and tell us exactly where you see mark move. I bet you can't find it.

Here you go:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqwx7w6i1HQ[/youtube]

Watch the white line to the left. Webber is definately getting closer to it. Webber comes out of turn 12 at 1.40 then starts to move accross at 1.42.

watch 0:24-0:25, Vettel clearly move right while there is more than enough space on the left. Mark did not more left IMO; it seems he even started moving right slightly. I would put the blame on Vettel, clearly

[aral]

If i am not mistaken, herr Vettel has had previous regarding suddenly moving right when not safe to do so. My mind drifts back to his very cynicle move on Hamilton in the pits a few races back.

Its time someone had a word in his ear. I've lost a lot of respect for the impetious little toerag.

Great display of how team-mates should race from both Mclarens, thats the difference between actual champions and mere pretenders. =D>

Hamilton was told to conserve fuel, as Webber was. This allowed their teammates to challenge for position. Vettel was clear to pass Webber, but Button, who had also been told to turn the wick down, decided to try and take advantage, but after a bang with Hamilton, was instructed to fall back. After the race, it was clear to see that Hamilton was very unhappy with Button's move. There will be some words in the Mclaren garage, tonght!

[ringo]

if anything, bring up back the video and tell us exactly where you see mark move. I bet you can't find it.

Mark clearly looks in his left hand mirror early on, moves the car slightly to the left to block but doesn't move over anywhere near enough to stop Vettel from going through. He then tries to hold his position for reasons which I know not what, because it isn't going to help him regain the place, and the line he is on is not parallel to the side of the track. It doesn't matter whether he doesn't move the wheel or not. It was a stupid and pointless way to defend a position, but not really a surprise. Mark has form.

Vettel did no juking of any kind. He was clearly going through and his slight move to the right was in preparation for braking for the corner where he would have imagined that Webber would be around the outside and where he can't see where Webber is.

Once again, it's caused by a driver's inability to accept that he's lost the position.

No disrespect but what you are saying makes no sense. What you are saying is not actuality. I am honestly trying to follow you but it does not add up.
Show the video and tell us the points in time these moves happen.

How can it be stupid and pointless way to defend a position if he doesn't move? The man does not move the car!

[avatar]

Avoiding the Webber/Vettel, Hamilton/Button stuff for now....

Quick question:
BBC coverage - F1 Forum coverage on red button (Freeview ch301) was dropped in favour of French Open Tennis. I searched high and low on for it on the web:
> BBC Sport site
> BBC F1 site
> Youtube
> even BBCF1's Facebook
but the closest I found was the BBC 606 forums

Any ideas where to find it in case it gets bumped again in future?


The story of the race for me:
Macca race pace was blinding & RBR stunning through Turn8 (was hoping to see whether they would hit traffic in Turn8 to see whether the exhaust augmentation cause D/F loss on lifting off).
Over a lap on race fuel, MCL seemed to have the legs on RBR, even if they couldn't capitalise due to shortcomings of the car through the fast corners.
(were MCL running stiff to drop the R/H & compensate for lack of comparative D/F with RBR/less effective "R/H management"?)

Hopefully Renault, Merc & Ferrari can get back in the mix soon too, shame they've dropped off so far from the MCL pace.
FIndia seem to have lost their way a bit, but Lotus seem to be stepping up a gear & battling with the Willys (albeit slightly unwell Willys).

[ringo]

If i am not mistaken, herr Vettel has had previous regarding suddenly moving right when not safe to do so. My mind drifts back to his very cynicle move on Hamilton in the pits a few races back.

Its time someone had a word in his ear. I've lost a lot of respect for the impetious little toerag.

Great display of how team-mates should race from both mclarens, thats the difference between actual champions and mere pretenders. =D>

He did it in this very same race to hamilton as well!

[Jon]

if anything, bring up back the video and tell us exactly where you see mark move. I bet you can't find it.

Here you go:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqwx7w6i1HQ[/youtube]

Watch the white line to the left. Webber is definately getting closer to it. Webber comes out of turn 12 at 1.40 then starts to move accross at 1.42.

Mate, did you watch the video to the end? I'm curious...what can you tell us about what happens between 2:17 and 2:21? Because I'm seeing Vettel's front left on the white line at 2:18 and at least a foot to the right of it at 2:20. Contact occurs at 2:21.