Mercedes GP W02

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Not profficient enough X.

Can parlais in Dutch or Portuguese, but I doubt Stuttgart or Brackley has either.

[marcush.]

With the increase in minimum weight, maybe it was a gamble for some as of yet unknown benefit?

We know the car is slippery, and we know Mercedes actively sought to have a higher top end than others as the W01 struggled in this are in the first half of 2010.

It would be good to hear from the team regards the wheel base and who in particular was responsible for it and why they went forward with the idea.

JET,what is a yet unknown benefit...

The high top speeds are directly linked to a relatively low drag .A road explored by Force India with some success in 2009 and HRT with no success at all in 2010

The lower drag is just a function of their aero efficiency too bad with more downforce cranked on (the gain in downforce will not outweigh the losses due to drag ..quite a simple maths thing.RedBull ,Macs and Ferrari have their best efficiencies at a bit higher drag but significantly more downforce so it would be easy for the top runners to have the same topspeed as Mercedes but it would make them slower over a lap.)

So if it was planned as such it was a bad judgement from the aero guys ,as they did not deliver the downforce level needed for the drag they produce to be competitive.
That´s not a function of cooling layout or tanks or Cof G it´s just a lack in aero performance and if I´m right all the short wheelbase and double rad thing was driven by the aero departments which to produce a short car to make their concept work.
The striking thing is the Aero of the car should mae them untouchable in AERO dependent corners and not quick on straights...I´d say that was the aim.But as it looks the holes are all closed now but the cornerspeed is still not there all they have is lower drag than others on the straights and that´s owed more to their rear wing philosophy ?

[wesley123]

Sure they could just bolt on more df, really simple to do that, but that needs to be balanced out too, and if they cannot do that I dont see why they should 'just bolt on more df'. Just because the front teams run more df doesnt mean that bolting on df increases pace.

[xpensive]

...
The high top speeds are directly linked to a relatively low drag?

You're perhapsforgetting that MGP have at least 30 Hp more than all others to spend on aero drag.

[marcush.]

ok ,lets crank back.
There is more than one ways to go around a track quickly.Each car has his strengths and weaknesses and still Ferrari ,Mclaren and REDBULL post quite similar laptimes and Mercedes does show deficits.
So ,in effect they do not translate what´s in the tyres into laptime ,simple as that.
You are right ,it is not sure if more downforce would make them faster around the tracks even if they could magically crank on downforce without adding drag.

But it seems to be at least a reasonable assumption..Everybody is looking for better efficiency which is more downforce for aa given drag number .When you are constantly quickest through the speedtraps but never at the start finish line it´s a fair bet you have got it a bit wrong with your layout...or you just don´t want to win.

I understand that cranking on some flap will ruin their efficiency and will just slow them down .

x..nice ...maybe Norbert and Zetsche thumb Brawn before the weekend telling him the two W02 s need to be quickest in all speedtraps all weekend as the Benz is by definition the best engine ..and ross boys get the best of the best...
Still does not explain the lack of laptime when you are leading the topspeed ranking and have pulled out all stops for aero performance -which is drag but also downforce.

I understand the attraction of going for lower drag numbers the potential gains are significant on the straights when being down 2 or 3 kmh on exit speed does not really show in lap time.You need to be significantly quicker through the corners to make up for that.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Oh yes, that fabled old 30hp chestnut again.

There isn't even that difference between the Cosworth and the Benz unit. Amusing.

[dren]

The team went the wrong way with their diffuser design. The car was built for the midship exhaust set-up. The bad CofG, like you stated Marcush, is most likely hurting them, but is not the sole reason for their lack of pace. It may add up to a good ammount in full fuel, as they seem to lack race pace the most on a full tank. The W02 just doesn't extract enough DF through the diffuser. The team could simply crank on more DF with the front and rear wings, but it looks like that would be too much of a drag penalty or they would have done it already. The new flexi front wing picked up some DF without a drag penalty and the rear EBD did the same. They are keeping up with, just not gaining on the competition. That is promising to see if/when they design a good car out of the gate.

[beelsebob]

...
The high top speeds are directly linked to a relatively low drag?

You're perhapsforgetting that MGP have at least 30 Hp more than all others to spend on aero drag.

Oh god, not this one again... The Merc is known to generate 755hp, and the renault 737hp. Are you claiming that McLaren are sat there with 12hp less than RBR? Sorry, but I would bet heavily that the absolutely least powerful Merc engine that makes it into an F1 car of any kind still develops 753hp. I would also bet that Merc have no way of determining that this one, as opposed to one at the opposite end of the bell curve will make it into a Merc rather than a McL or FI.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Not to mention that outright power is not as important as driveabilty.

Also if the engine produces such a discrepancy between identical units(as near as humanly possible) then wouldn't the difference have a knock on effect to the recipient teams fuel consumption and cooling requirements?

If there was a difference between these guys engines, Force India and McLaren would have said so by now.
Teams can easily work it out by the amount of fuel a team requires and by other higher tech means of auditing... Like the sonic radar devices that have been used for years.

Really hope that puts this to bed now.

[xpensive]

...
Teams can easily work it out by the amount of fuel a team requires and by other higher tech means of auditing...
...

Well, not if the Mercedes' Mercedes engines have better fuel economy per produced HP as well, right?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Shifting the goal posts again x?

What will it be? More horsepower as in the 30hp figure you keep bandying around. Or, more horsepower per Kg of fuel?

[xpensive]

...
What will it be? More horsepower as in the 30hp figure you keep bandying around. Or, more horsepower per Kg of fuel?

Of course they can have both, probably with a wider power-band at that.

[Ferraripilot]

...
The high top speeds are directly linked to a relatively low drag?

You're perhapsforgetting that MGP have at least 30 Hp more than all others to spend on aero drag.

You're still arguing this nonsense? How many engines have you built and dyno'd? I have done quite a few and can tell you the above is false. Moving on. Please

[marcush.]

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 47996.html

sorry guys -only german -

it is clearly stated in this piece:
There are 12 cycles with 4 power levels available and mandatory allocated to each engine delivered and MERCEDES does stipulate how long teams have to use the levels during lifetime...This has according to Mercedes Man Rob thomas considerable safety margins ...and is the reason for Mercedes not having any engine trouble.(in addition to their stringent quality control and build process).
So in deed Mercedes can run their own MGP engines for longer time at riskier mappings than their clients without them ever realising.
The power loss over lifing of the component is 4% .So a fresh engine with 755Hp will end its service time with 30HP less.

[PhillipM]

Yes, I'm sure McLaren with their extensive development partnership and use of the Merc engines wouldn't notice that Mercedes are suddenly making them run more conservative mapping and less power after buying their own GP team.
And I'm sure they'll slow down Mclaren as they wouldn't want their name to be at the top of the championship tables would they?

Oooh, look, a flying pig.