2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[chrisc90]

Er, they're currently second in the constructors' title race behind the most dominant car of its era. I guess that's one definition of "upper-midfield" but most drivers would be happy in such a seat.

The drivers are flattering the car a bit. By contrast, Stroll is making Aston look worse than they are. Merc are not necessarily convincingly the 2nd fastest car anywhere. In fact that mantle went to Mclaren, Aston, and Ferrari on more occasions than not.

Team, not car. The comment was that they're an upper midfield team. They're not. As a team, they're outperforming those with ostensibly faster cars. With a faster car, they'll be leaving those others behind.

Are they though? McLaren are comfortably 2nd fastest now I’d say. Pointless looking at the WCC table given mclaren didn’t even bother bringing a worthwhile car for 1/3 of the season.

AMR were strong but a botched upgrade dropped them back.

Ferrari are just Ferrari and most teams are capitalising off their mess ups.

Dare bet if you take from say silverstone onwards… merc won’t be 2nd without a fight.

Pointless giving hypotheticals… if all the teams had a RB, then where would the team standings be? Totally silly saying with a faster car they would be leaving others behind… because you can say the same for the 8-9 other teams on the grid

[AR3-GP]

Er, they're currently second in the constructors' title race behind the most dominant car of its era. I guess that's one definition of "upper-midfield" but most drivers would be happy in such a seat.

The drivers are flattering the car a bit. By contrast, Stroll is making Aston look worse than they are. Merc are not necessarily convincingly the 2nd fastest car anywhere. In fact that mantle went to Mclaren, Aston, and Ferrari on more occasions than not.

Team, not car. The comment was that they're an upper midfield team. They're not. As a team, they're outperforming those with ostensibly faster cars. With a faster car, they'll be leaving those others behind.

"Team". Do you mean that in the sense of pitstops...strategy...and development inroads to RB? Well then you're right about one thing, I wouldn't call it "upper midfield"...

Okay, moment of weakness has passed....

Any of Mclaren, ferrari, Aston, Mercedes "with a faster car" would be leaving the other 3 behind. that's the test isn't it. Who is going to have the "faster car" first?

[Just_a_fan]

The drivers are flattering the car a bit. By contrast, Stroll is making Aston look worse than they are. Merc are not necessarily convincingly the 2nd fastest car anywhere. In fact that mantle went to Mclaren, Aston, and Ferrari on more occasions than not.

Team, not car. The comment was that they're an upper midfield team. They're not. As a team, they're outperforming those with ostensibly faster cars. With a faster car, they'll be leaving those others behind.

"Team". Do you mean that in the sense of pitstops...strategy...and development inroads to RB? Well then you're right about one thing, I wouldn't call it "upper midfield"...

"Team" as in the overall performance over the season to date. No good saying "this other car is faster" if the team's drivers don't maximise the results it can achieve.

As a team, Mercedes are currently second in the title race. And making childish comments does alter that fact.

[PlatinumZealot]

We haven't seen a proper clean race of the car since the latest upgrade. Monza won't be representative unfortunately, but I feel the car will run good there and we'll fight for a podium.

[AR3-GP]

Team, not car. The comment was that they're an upper midfield team. They're not. As a team, they're outperforming those with ostensibly faster cars. With a faster car, they'll be leaving those others behind.

"Team". Do you mean that in the sense of pitstops...strategy...and development inroads to RB? Well then you're right about one thing, I wouldn't call it "upper midfield"...

"Team" as in the overall performance over the season to date. No good saying "this other car is faster" if the team's drivers don't maximise the results it can achieve.

As a team, Mercedes are currently second in the title race. And making childish comments does alter that fact.

I do understand you are trying to see the silver lining, but maybe it's a case of the glass half empty, glass half full difference of perception.

[Just_a_fan]

The drivers are flattering the car a bit. By contrast, Stroll is making Aston look worse than they are. Merc are not necessarily convincingly the 2nd fastest car anywhere. In fact that mantle went to Mclaren, Aston, and Ferrari on more occasions than not.

Team, not car. The comment was that they're an upper midfield team. They're not. As a team, they're outperforming those with ostensibly faster cars. With a faster car, they'll be leaving those others behind.

Are they though? McLaren are comfortably 2nd fastest now I’d say. Pointless looking at the WCC table given mclaren didn’t even bother bringing a worthwhile car for 1/3 of the season.

AMR were strong but a botched upgrade dropped them back.

Ferrari are just Ferrari and most teams are capitalising off their mess ups.

Dare bet if you take from say silverstone onwards… merc won’t be 2nd without a fight.

Pointless giving hypotheticals… if all the teams had a RB, then where would the team standings be? Totally silly saying with a faster car they would be leaving others behind… because you can say the same for the 8-9 other teams on the grid

It's the team's performance. If another team doesn't bring a worthwhile car for a 1/3 of the season, that team hasn't performed as well. Likewise botched upgrades. Likewise Ferrari messing up. As a team, Mercedes have out performed those other teams so far this season. That's why they are currently second in the constructors' table.

And if there's no point looking at the points table then why have a points table?

A number of people have camped in here - "the enemy's thread" as a mod describes it - and have spent time enjoying themselves taking the piss out of Mercedes (some might call it trolling but that sort of description is frowned upon). Well, enjoy it because it won't last forever.

[Just_a_fan]

"Team". Do you mean that in the sense of pitstops...strategy...and development inroads to RB? Well then you're right about one thing, I wouldn't call it "upper midfield"...

"Team" as in the overall performance over the season to date. No good saying "this other car is faster" if the team's drivers don't maximise the results it can achieve.

As a team, Mercedes are currently second in the title race. And making childish comments does alter that fact.

I do understand you are trying to see the silver lining, but maybe it's a case of the glass half empty, glass half full difference of perception.

No, it's the difference between assessing the team's performance to date and simply taking the piss because it gives you a laugh.

[AR3-GP]

"Team" as in the overall performance over the season to date. No good saying "this other car is faster" if the team's drivers don't maximise the results it can achieve.

As a team, Mercedes are currently second in the title race. And making childish comments does alter that fact.

I do understand you are trying to see the silver lining, but maybe it's a case of the glass half empty, glass half full difference of perception.

No, it's the difference between assessing the team's performance to date and simply taking the piss because it gives you a laugh.

I did give you an assessment.

Pitstops, strategy, and car need to show a better upward trajectory.
Drivers are fine.

I essentially said those points in my last 2 post.

[Just_a_fan]

I do understand you are trying to see the silver lining, but maybe it's a case of the glass half empty, glass half full difference of perception.

No, it's the difference between assessing the team's performance to date and simply taking the piss because it gives you a laugh.

but I did give you an assessment.

Pitstops, strategy, and car need to show a better upward trajectory.
Drivers are fine.

All of those things together - the team's performance - has put them second in the table so far this season. It's the team's performance. Are individual aspects lacking? Yes. Is the overall performance good enough to be running second? Yes. Ergo, the team's performance is not currently "midfield".

[chrisc90]

Silverstone:
Merc:25pts
McLaren:30pts
Ferrari:3pts
Aston Martin:6pts

Hungary:
Merc:20pts
McLaren:28pts
Ferrari:10pts
Aston Martin:3pts

Belgium:
Merc:21pts
McLaren:6pts (piastri DNF)
Ferrari:15pts (sainz DNF)
Aston Martin:12pts

Zandvoort:
Merc:8pts (Russell DNF)
McLaren:8pts
Ferrari:10pts(lec DNF)
Aston Martin:19pts


Overall:
Merc:74pts
McLaren:72pts
Ferrari:38pts
Aston Martin:40pts

Maybe it’s saying something when a team at the back of the grid comfortably is only 2 points behind Mercedes over 4 races - where they brought a major upgrade since acknowledging they were nowhere at the start of the season..

[Just_a_fan]

but I did give you an assessment.

Pitstops, strategy, and car need to show a better upward trajectory.
Drivers are fine.

All of those things together - the team's performance - has put them second in the table so far this season. It's the team's performance. Are individual aspects lacking? Yes. Is the overall performance good enough to be running second? Yes. Ergo, the team's performance is not currently "midfield".

The OP said "upper-midfield", not "midfield".

If we are wanting to be technical, then you have Verstappen out front on his own. Then a midpack which Mercedes has not separated themselves from. Mercedes are not in the no-mans land. They are in the thick of the "upper-midfield" battle fought between themselves, Mclaren, Aston, and lower midfield teams (Ferrari,Alpine, Williams). Then you have backmarkers (Alfa, Alpha, Haas)

Mercedes, AM and Ferrari are "the chasing pack". McLaren and Alpine are the "midfield" and the rest are the backmarkers. Based on points, groupings, etc. If you want technical. Or rather semantic, technically.

[Just_a_fan]

Maybe it’s saying something when a team at the back of the grid comfortably is only 2 points behind Mercedes over 4 races - where they brought a major upgrade since acknowledging they were nowhere at the start of the season..

Picking convenient time frames proves what? Over the two races at Monaco and Spain, Mercedes were only a handful of points behind Red Bull. Does that make Red Bull rubbish?

[ValeVida46]

Of course not. max could win the WDC by himself.

However, you can’t look at that in isolation, and of course the season as a whole is what is paramount…. But from what has been significant over the last 4/5 races… is that mclaren has brought a MAJOR upgrade that has brought then to the front running. If you have picked up 72 points in 4 races where you otherwise picked up none (or very few prior) is massively significant.
If a team went from scoring zero points in the first 8-9 races then have scored points 2 behind a upper midfield player in the last 4-5 races brings a massive ‘oh hello’ question mark above them.

Something like that simply can’t be ignored. If Merc were the better team in the first 1/3 of the season, then RB come along and Max has wiped the floor points wise with everyone else since - you simply can’t ignore that.

We can pick and choose all we want, but nobody can ignore the averages of how the season has progressed. If we looked at the first 1/3 of the season anyone would have wrote mclaren off completely… which would have resulted in merc being second best to Red Bull…. But as realism plays out… are merc really second best? Or are they fighting hard with McLaren, Aston etx

You're still literally picking and choosing a convenient time frame.
Where is the constructive element to your point? Last I checked the table stands as a merit of the season up to the latest race.
The table doesn't start when McLaren made their update, or after some mediocre results for Mercedes.
Attributing greater weight to results after arbitrary point x, ignores the entirety of the season up to now.

Are Mercedes really second best? Yes.
If another team reaches number 2 in the next few races, they will be second best. This is how it works
Here's a big table to help you:

[chrisc90]

It’s a ever evolving scenario though.

The question is… at the minute are merc second best or have others made gains and some made losses?

Maybe someone needs to make a points per race table and look to see how other teams are evolving and what order of placement you can put them. As I said, it’s averages.
If we look at your way, which is overall right across a season, we have 2 Merc drivers that are 4th and 6th beat on the grid…. You try telling that to some people on here and see where/how it goes.

Overall, Merc are second best overall on points, but whether they are overall second best car in the field at the minute, and how the season has progressed and evolved, is a different answer

[Cs98]

You're still literally picking and choosing a convenient time frame.
Where is the constructive element to your point? Last I checked the table stands as a merit of the season up to the latest race.
The table doesn't start when McLaren made their update, or after some mediocre results for Mercedes.
Attributing greater weight to results after arbitrary point x, ignores the entirety of the season up to now.

Are Mercedes really second best? Yes.
If another team reaches number 2 in the next few races, they will be second best. This is how it works
Here's a big table to help you:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F4jVnqJWkAAy-18.jpg:large

Does that preclude them from being an "upper midfield" team currently?