Mercedes AMG F1 W03

[PlatinumZealot]

i am baffled to why just Mercs are affected by this coanda exhasut, while other teams even caterhm can make it
work.....there is something seriously wrong with their exhaust placement and sidepod philosophy

The Coanda did work. MSC was only 8 tenths off in Q3. I think their problem is suspension related.

[Joie de vivre]

hope this guy gets on train with mgp guy more often. would be nice to exchange some infos here

[jz11]

Right, so bolting a four branch on a 4 pot making turbo lag is the same as a coanda increasing fuel consumption, how, exactly?

I think by lag he meant that the torque curve is different and the power starts to come up a bit later in rpm range, which is almost always the case when something goes out of whack with intake/exhaust tuning, even on daily drivers

the same can be happening with that coanda exhaust, if the flow around the exhaust tip is changed, then it almost certainly will affect the resonance of the exhaust tract, which will have its impact on the performance of the engine, couple tests and they should be able to fix it though

my only concern about that fuel consumption statement is that they say nothing about the torque curve changes, which are inevitable consequence of the things I just mentioned...

[PlatinumZealot]

You get more low end power/torque because the exhaust pipe is longer.

High end power is lost, unless you add more fuel and timing to make it back.

The engine has to be tuned to rich to make the coanda exhaust blow harder too.

We must keep in mind that this is not really the problem for Mercedes. Renault has 4 cars with Coanda exhaust, RB8, FW-24, CT01, E20. they all share engine information with Renault so it is inevitable that some cross over info is feed to the teams. Mercedes have information from Mclaren and Force India, who have good working Coanda's... wouln't one think that Mercedes themselves should know how to tune their own engine? Hence I can say that the engine tuning is not a problem.

[Timstr]

hope this guy gets on train with mgp guy more often. would be nice to exchange some infos here

Was this guy an engineer or a milling machine operator. Don't think the latter will have accurate inside info.

[Intego]

dont know if this is true or not, but here it is

... they decided to do a back to back with both cars as rosberg had just put on a new set of mediums and was in clear air so they wanted to see if the coandas gained enough laptime back on schumachers car compared to rosberg even though he had harder tyres and more fuel on board...

anybody have stint times comparison to times from the time Schumy made his final stop ?

7 MSC ----------- 8 ROS
LAP TIME ------ LAP TIME
34 1:43.069 ---- 34P 1:42.909
35 1:44.133 ---- 35 2:04.168
36 1:42.910 ---- 36 1:42.764
37 1:44.261 ---- 37 1:41.949
38 1:43.317 ---- 38 1:41.872
39P 1:42.478 --- 39 1:41.605
40 2:03.453 ---- 40 1:40.940
41 1:42.996 ---- 41 1:41.141
42 1:42.232 ---- 42 1:41.365
43 1:41.440 ---- 43 1:41.042
44 1:41.624 ---- 44 1:41.363
45 1:41.369 ---- 45 1:41.669
46 1:41.194 ---- 46 1:42.802
47 1:41.374 ---- 47 1:41.342
48 1:41.308 ---- 48 1:40.942
49 1:41.482 ---- 49 1:40.857
50 1:41.165 ---- 50 1:40.518
51 1:42.195 ---- 51 1:40.428
52 1:41.553 ---- 52 1:40.713
53 1:41.512 ---- 53 1:40.579
54 1:40.923 ---- 54 1:40.738
55 1:41.067 ---- 55 1:40.942
------------------- 56 1:42.032

FIA Race Lap Analysis (PDF)

[Joie de vivre]

No idea. But it would be interesting what mgp thinks about chewy rbr nose cone or is mercury system true etc.

[marcush.]

i am baffled to why just Mercs are affected by this coanda exhasut, while other teams even caterhm can make it
work.....there is something seriously wrong with their exhaust placement and sidepod philosophy

The Coanda did work. MSC was only 8 tenths off in Q3. I think their problem is suspension related.

The suspension was good enough for Schumachers lap time as well ....The race pace was not there ...
So in effect Schumachers setup was useless for the race conditions and the variables available (KERS,Tyre preparation,diff and engine variables) are not enough or are not exploited in the same ways as by others

Brawn has voiced his regrets about having not fully gotten to grips with the new formula 1 technology with all interrelated variables and endless possibilities to setup the complicated systems.
In reality you will not get very far with 1 change at a time Yes-No testing and evaluation these days ...the key is to use your real world runs to correlate your model to the truth and explore the outer boundaries where your model starts to drift away from reality and is feeding back only crap.
If it took them all the years to realisre this ...sorry for them as RedBull clearly showed how multiphysics is done these days.

[jz11]

You get more low end power/torque because the exhaust pipe is longer.

High end power is lost, unless you add more fuel and timing to make it back.

The engine has to be tuned to rich to make the coanda exhaust blow harder too.

We must keep in mind that this is not really the problem for Mercedes. Renault has 4 cars with Coanda exhaust, RB8, FW-24, CT01, E20. they all share engine information with Renault so it is inevitable that some cross over info is feed to the teams. Mercedes have information from Mclaren and Force India, who have good working Coanda's... wouln't one think that Mercedes themselves should know how to tune their own engine? Hence I can say that the engine tuning is not a problem.

doesn't the engine manufacturer deliver block+head+intake and the team is designing the exhaust to match their chassis? and then assembly gets tuned (software variables and hardware)?

what I tried to say was that if they just rearranged the bodywork and used an old header to start the development around that area, then the exhaust system may not be fully tuned yet, thus the engine will not work efficiently, no matter what numbers you put in the maps, and I don't think any team will just go ahead and give their header design to a rival just like that

[Intego]

AMuS: Mercedes without Coanda to Brazil (Google translation)
AMuS German article

The exhaust gases from the Coanda layout possibly swirl and overheat the rear tyres. ROS and MSC would like to finish the season with some points and likely will use the still faster conventional exhaust.

This is understandable as Sauber is only 12 point behind. MGP must be desperate ...

[elf341]

I think they will split again but this time with Schumacher on the conventional.

[Joie de vivre]

Coanda works great for others. MGP, step your game up already!

[Timstr]

Given their position and in light of the important 2013 tyre test to take place on Friday, it's not such a bad idea. You don't want the exhaust gases distort your readings on tyre temperatures.

As I thought this indicates it's an aero problem to solve. Getting the gases to blow at the right place with the right energy. I'd rather they spend time iterating on the 2013 car (Redbull went though numerous iterations before they got it right) rather than wasting time on the 2012 car.

[Vasconia]

AMuS: Mercedes without Coanda to Brazil (Google translation)
AMuS German article

The exhaust gases from the Coanda layout possibly swirl and overheat the rear tyres. ROS and MSC would like to finish the season with some points and likely will use the still faster conventional exhaust.

This is understandable as Sauber is only 12 point behind. MGP must be desperate ...

And MSC want to achieve some points and an respectable end to his career, I have said in another post, at least Michael was fast in the wet qualis of England and Germany, so if it rains in Brazil who know what can happens.

[PlatinumZealot]

You get more low end power/torque because the exhaust pipe is longer.

High end power is lost, unless you add more fuel and timing to make it back.

The engine has to be tuned to rich to make the coanda exhaust blow harder too.

We must keep in mind that this is not really the problem for Mercedes. Renault has 4 cars with Coanda exhaust, RB8, FW-24, CT01, E20. they all share engine information with Renault so it is inevitable that some cross over info is feed to the teams. Mercedes have information from Mclaren and Force India, who have good working Coanda's... wouln't one think that Mercedes themselves should know how to tune their own engine? Hence I can say that the engine tuning is not a problem.

doesn't the engine manufacturer deliver block+head+intake and the team is designing the exhaust to match their chassis? and then assembly gets tuned (software variables and hardware)?

what I tried to say was that if they just rearranged the bodywork and used an old header to start the development around that area, then the exhaust system may not be fully tuned yet, thus the engine will not work efficiently, no matter what numbers you put in the maps, and I don't think any team will just go ahead and give their header design to a rival just like that

THe header design is not secret. The headers are there for all to see. There is no big secret to the header designs. I don't think the problem is related to the engine or engine mapping. I beilieve it's poor suspension tuning overall. whether that is aerodynamic or mechanical suspension tuning. Just my belief.