2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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Shakeman
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Joined: 21 Mar 2011, 13:31
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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giantfan10 wrote:what a lame race! what we witnessed was a class on the dirty side of aerodynamics.....nobody in the top four attempted any passes while running in a procession with gaps of about 2.5 seconds to stay out of dirty air...get into dirty air and your tires are gone....hopefully we dont see a repeat of this next weekend.
Is it the aero or the tyres?

If the tyres weren't so fragile then the drivers could fight and appear to have taken a backward step this year all down the grid.

F1 needs to lower the downforce and make the tyres stickier and more durable if it wants more action, until then there will regular dull races like this one.

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Phil
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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GPR-A wrote:Yesterday though, Nico was given the pit stop ahead of Lewis on second pit stop, despite both eying for a win and leading. The gap was very close and Nico could have easily undercut Lewis, if Lewis would have screwed up while Nico was in pits.
It wasn't that close. For an undercut to work, the time delta of the new tyre + in-lap needs to be greater than the other driver on the older-tyre and his outlap. At the point Lewis pitted, Nico had already reached the drop-off of his tyres and was losing time vs. Lewis (so the gap was increasing) and the gap wasn't that small to beginn with (at that point 4+s I think, and increasing). So Lewis wasn't in danger of losing position due to the undercut at all.


On the spat between Rosberg and Lewis:
My thoughts on it is that Rosberg is growing increasingly frustrated. Lewis is doing a superb job and he is also doing a brilliant job at managing his tyres. If we look at the first part of the race, the gap was always very close, with the gap being around 1.1 to 1.3s. At first, it seemed Rosberg was gaining, but later, it showed that he used his tyres different, pushing a bit too much in the beginning, which made his tyres go off later, when Lewis had more capacity left. The same was also true in the 2nd stint; Nico pushing at the beginning, Lewis maintaining and then having more performance left in the tyre towards the end of the stint.

Nico's criticism doesn't make a lot of sense, because as one said, if he wanted Lewis to go faster, the easiest way would have been to push more, close the gap and add pressure to Lewis. He didn't do that. Instead, he decided to add pressure through the team by playing the 'team-player' who's only goal was to secure the 1&2 and make it seem his team-mate in the lead was sandbagging him into Vettel behind. IMO this is simply a classic attempt of trying to get the team behind you, nothing more. Can't blame him for trying - he didn't have any answers on the track, so rattling the cage with a bit of internal drama like what happened last year in Monaco is something that could work. I'm sure Mercedes spoke about the scenario that Ferrari might give them a few headaches, so had some pre-determined plan to make sure they can achieve that 1&2. He was simply trying to capitalize on that, making it seem Lewis wasn't doing his "bit".

Rosberg is a fiece competitor, he wants to win. This time last year, he was still riding on the effect of Lewis having his DNF in Melbourne and was enjoying a lead, despite being outperformed in every race up to that point (sans the one Lewis had his DNF). Monaco was the turn around and it put him in the lead again. If things continue the same with Lewis leading up until Monaco, even a turn-around performance in Monaco will not change the standings in the championship.

From Rosbergs point of view, this has not been a good start. With Ferrari being stronger than anticipated and Lewis leading every race so far, midway through the season, he knows the team will rally behind what is their leading driver. The bigger the point gap is, the harder it will be for him to bounce back. So it's crucial for him to turn around something.

I wouldn't write him off just yet. Although to be fair; The only reason Rosberg was ever as close as he was last year in the championship is because of Lewis's DNFs and the fact that them mostly finishing first or second ment a rather small increase by 7 points when a DNF ment a 25 point deficit. At the end the DNFs leveled out, but 11 vs 5 wins sais it all really. Nico will bounce back, I'm sure and he will win race(s) this year, that I am sure of too. But Lewis is strong and he was last year too in these same races.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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WaikeCU wrote:we could well see Verstappen move up, because he's the kid now that is making the headlines along with Hamilton.
It's amazing to think that this is only his second season in single seaters. His first season, last year, saw him come third in F3 but he won more races than anyone else including the champion!

The kid is a real star and, if he gets a good seat and some decent support, then he is future F1 champion in the making.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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Phil wrote: Lewis is doing a superb job and he is also doing a brilliant job at managing his tyres.
I remember when Hamilton started in F1 and was rightly accused of being fast but hard on his tyres. How things have changed. Seems he's been learning as he goes.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Phil wrote: Lewis is doing a superb job and he is also doing a brilliant job at managing his tyres.
I remember when Hamilton started in F1 and was rightly accused of being fast but hard on his tyres. How things have changed. Seems he's been learning as he goes.
It kind of feels he isn't even pushing at all. Last weekend he was just cruising around at ease. Hearing Rosberg saying Hamilton was going too slow, which backed him up to Vettel, kind of makes me think Hamilton has developed himself even more throughout the years. That raw pace and courage he has, which his lifetime hero Ayrton Senna was famous for, but now he has that Alain Prost side as well: Driving as slow as possible to win the race. That side of racing is a crucial thing nowadays, because you don't want to put too much stress on the car when it's not necessary.

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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Just_a_fan wrote:
WaikeCU wrote:we could well see Verstappen move up, because he's the kid now that is making the headlines along with Hamilton.
It's amazing to think that this is only his second season in single seaters. His first season, last year, saw him come third in F3 but he won more races than anyone else including the champion!

The kid is a real star and, if he gets a good seat and some decent support, then he is future F1 champion in the making.
+1.
What is really amazing is his ability to understand his car's limits in changing conditions, in terms of car performance and constantly changing grip. He did some really good passes at the end of the back straight, late breaking and keeping the car absolutely in right position. In a similar try, Ricciardo failed once before nailing it second time. Although Sainz is equally good driver, but he is making a lot of mistakes like going off track and spinning which is not going to help him as the season progresses, whereas Max is really getting better and better in every race. Considering his lack of experience in single seater, driving that twitchy Renault powered car with such control, only shows the talent that he has. The progress now can only be forward and upward. Hope to see him in a competitive car sooner.

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iotar__
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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GPR-A wrote:
iotar__ wrote: 'It's not my job to look after Nico's race' Fine, direct comparison: that's what Rosberg should have said after Austria when they gave Hamilton free position with a pitstop out of sequence.
In Austria, it was not that both were leading the field and Lewis was right behind Nico. Strategy call based on race situation as Lewis was far behind. Even in Sochi, Nico screwed up in first corner and went to pits BEFORE THE LEADER, LEWIS. :) Merc should have stuck to their guns and should have said, "NO NICO, UNTIL LEWIS PITS, YOU ARE NOT COMING IN".
Yesterday though, Nico was given the pit stop ahead of Lewis on second pit stop, despite both eying for a win and leading. The gap was very close and Nico could have easily undercut Lewis, if Lewis would have screwed up while Nico was in pits.
iotar__ wrote: If it was up to drivers but it's not. It's Mercedes' job to control strategy, or send them too late in qualifying,
In changing weather conditions of Malaysia qualifying in Q2, Lewis was almost out of Q2 as it started raining. Lewis also complained that he was sent too late. So, nothing like Merc can't screw up things. Look at Kimi, who was ahead of Lewis at that point, but still couldn't get a decent lap and was out of Q2.
iotar__ wrote: Every man for himself? Fine, that's what happened in Spa and then there were cries and punishment for one driver.
That doesn't mean you go and screw up someone's car, especially your team mate's. I am sure a lot of discussion has happened on this topic. You have held your opinion and others have held theirs.
1. it doesn't matter at all where Hamilton was compared to Rosberg in Austria, what matters is if team's preferential to one driver decision gave him advantage over the other. If whatever Hamilton was doing and Merc's lack of reaction caused Rosberg to lose position in China it would be reversed Austria. Simple: 2-3 against 3-2. So we go back to the question if it's up to drivers or a team to control strategy against each other. If it's up to a driver Rosberg says I'm pitting first (his right as a leading driver in Austria) and Hamilton can deal with Williams by himself. Why should he help him after his own screw up in qualifying? It's not.
2. Malaysia was nothing, I can bring Silverstone for blocking attempt that was worse.
3. "Screw car"? That didn't happen it was a minor incident that happens when people race and try to overtake. Merc lets them race, didn't you hear? It wasn't one-sided either. Unlike Bahrain where only Rosberg's backing off prevented Hamilton's chop "screwing with his car". Not dealing with it by Merc was a direct reason for Spa. I bring Bahrain example for a good reason - we can have (reversed) China situation again and soon this season.
4. That's the problem, not drivers doing something but Mercedes lying about it and not dealing with it properly and consistently (Hungary another example). Wolff "didn't know" if Rosberg made mistake on purpose in Monaco despite FIA clearing him but he knows Ham wasn't playing games in China? Give me a break and don't even start me with Lauda. Merc CEO and president of Hamilton's fan club (pathology): Bahrain - ruthlessness is necessary and they can fight, Spa - outrageous, you can't overtake, punish Rosberg, China - cryptic: they need to be egoistic.
5. Question is if Hamilton gets preferential treatment (several examples) and if he himself as a pure racer and his fans are fine with that =P~ . China "alleged" incident was minor but is a part of a bigger picture. If after early stop it's between Rosberg and Vettel should a leading driver be involved in affecting that.

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Phil
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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So, about the Hamilton / Rosberg spat. Lets analyse with some facts:

gaps:

Code: Select all

LAP      P1    GAP     P2   GAP     P3   NOTES
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lap 16   #44   3.052   #6   2.470   #5
lap 17   #44   2.120   #6   2.661   #5
lap 18   #44   2.213   #6   2.499   #5
lap 19   #44   2.425   #6   1.855   #5
lap 20   #44   2.351   #6   1.686   #5   ^radio: lewis is driving slowly
lap 21   #44   2.157   #6   1.700   #5   ^radio: if I go closer, I'll destroy tyres
lap 22   #44   2.074   #6   1.596   #5
lap 23   #44   1.944   #6   1.431   #5
lap 24   #44   2.024   #6   1.639   #5
lap 25   #44   1.801   #6   1.776   #5
lap 26   #44   2.102   #6   1.572   #5
lap 27   #44   2.182   #6   1.494   #5
lap 28   #44   2.406   #6   1.752   #5
lap 29   #44   2.780   #6   2.145   #5
lap 30   #44   3.280   #6   7.263   #7   Seb pits
lap 31   #44  12.379   #7                Ros pits
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lap times

Code: Select all

LAP      #44 HAM       #6 ROS       #5 VET       NOTES
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lap 16   1:44.222      2:01.104     1:43.787     Rosberg outlap
lap 17   1:44.869      1:43.937     1:44.128
lap 18   1:44.078      1:44.171     1:44.009
lap 19   1:44.176      1:44.388     1:43.744
lap 20   1:43.904      1:43.831     1:43.662     ^radio: lewis is driving slowly
lap 21   1:43.735      1:43.541     1:43.555     ^radio: if I go closer, I'll destroy tyres
lap 22   1:43.696      1:43.613     1:43.509
lap 23   1:43.887      1:43.757     1:43.592
lap 24   1:43.592      1:43.672     1:43.880
lap 25   1:43.702      1:43.479     1:43.616
lap 26   1:43.508      1:43.809     1:43.605
lap 27   1:43.647      1:43.727     1:43.649     ^radio: lewis target lap time now 1:43.3
lap 28   1:43.644      1:43.868     1:44.126
lap 29   1:43.239      1:43.613     1:44.006
lap 30   1:43.008      1:43.508     PIT
lap 31   1:42.208      PIT          2:00.657
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, the 2nd stint started roughly at around lap 15/16 (that's when HAM, ROS and VET all had their first pitstop out of the way).

Then, Hamilton had a slow-ish lap on lap17 when he lost nearly a second to Rosberg. Perhaps traffic, a small error, who knows. From that point on, Hamilton was actually increasing the gap from 2.120 to around 2.425 (lap 19). Lap 20, it decreased slightly to 2.351, at which point over the TV broadcast, Rosberg can be heard radioing his team that "Lewis is driving slowly". Now, I'm not sure how much latency is in the TV broadcast playing the radio message, but I wouldn't give it more than 2 laps. I'd say perhaps 1 lap. At that point, the gap was very constant because they were driving similar lap times. Vettel at this point (still lap 20) was at a distance of 1.68seconds to Rosberg.

Lap 21, Rosberg radios again, "if I go closer, I'll destroy my tyres like in the first stint". Here the gap was still 2.157.

From then on, the gap decreased a bit more down to 1.8 (lap 25), not because Lewis was driving slower, but because Rosberg was driving slightly quicker. Lewis got another radio on lap 27 (target lap time now 1:43.3 I think) after which he increases his lap time over the next two laps until he is under 1:43.3 (Lap 29, 30, 31). Rosberg at that point was still hovering around the same lap times he was doing throughout his entire stint, in the mid to high 1:43s.

Anyway, there was a fine line in this race between conserving tyres and pushing. I can understand that Rosberg was uncomfortable being between Lewis and Vettel with very limited options. I do think however that Lewis had a lot to lose if he had just pushed and found himself having to pit before the Ferrari would (or, even Rosberg, who could then attempt to be even quicker if he had saved some tyres) - which is I think what the Mercedes plan was; Maintain track position and try to manage that gap to prolong the tyres. Assuming you are on the identical strategy to the Ferraris behind, track position is key as well as not allowing to be undercut. Which is I think precisely what Lewis did. For Rosberg, it was difficult, because he couldn't to the same degree, though one has to argue that Vettel who was driving in Rosbergs "dirty air" also had higher tyre deg. If it's an issue for Rosberg driving in Lewis's wake, surely the same applies to Vettel too. So IMO, there isn't much of a valid argument there vs. the Ferraris. Of course, Nico wanted a better chance to battle Lewis, but if 2014 is anything to go on, the best thing he can do is add pressure by driving quicker, closing the gap and forcing your opponent (in his case Lewis) into a driver error - exactly like Lewis did in multiple instances last year.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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mrluke
mrluke
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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Shakeman wrote:
giantfan10 wrote:what a lame race! what we witnessed was a class on the dirty side of aerodynamics.....nobody in the top four attempted any passes while running in a procession with gaps of about 2.5 seconds to stay out of dirty air...get into dirty air and your tires are gone....hopefully we dont see a repeat of this next weekend.
Is it the aero or the tyres?

If the tyres weren't so fragile then the drivers could fight and appear to have taken a backward step this year all down the grid.

F1 needs to lower the downforce and make the tyres stickier and more durable if it wants more action, until then there will regular dull races like this one.
The opposite, when the tyres fall apart there is lots of action and overtaking, when the tyres last easily for 2 stops there is no drama at all.

But if the tyres fall apart everybody says what a great race but Pirelli suck at making tyres...obviously not good for Pirelli.

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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It just proves Lewis was conserving and maintaining the gap. If you look at the moment Vettel and Rosberg pitted, Hamilton upped his pace (1:42.208) to not allowing the undercut happen on him. So he really could drive a lot faster, but he didn't.

CevertF1
CevertF1
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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My god that was a dull and boring race. I am so sooooooo glad I stayed in bed and watched the replay.

Also the Nico-Lewis thing is nothing, a storm in a teacup. The people who think that was great, need to go watch some Senna and Prost press conferences, they were explosive compared to yesterday's.

Nico - grow a pair and step up, don't whine that Lewis is too slow, PASS HIM if he's too slow for you.
Lewis - you're a racing driver not a damn teenybopper pop star, drop the girly earrings and silly chains. You look stupid!

condor
condor
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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iotar__ wrote: 1. it doesn't matter at all where Hamilton was compared to Rosberg in Austria, what matters is if team's preferential to one driver decision gave him advantage over the other. If whatever Hamilton was doing and Merc's lack of reaction caused Rosberg to lose position in China it would be reversed Austria. Simple: 2-3 against 3-2. So we go back to the question if it's up to drivers or a team to control strategy against each other. If it's up to a driver Rosberg says I'm pitting first (his right as a leading driver in Austria) and Hamilton can deal with Williams by himself. Why should he help him after his own screw up in qualifying? It's not.
Of course it matters where a driver is compared to his team mate when discussing about lead driver having the right to pit first. Astounding that you would suggest otherwise.

The entire point of pitting the lead driver first is to give him the preferred strategy OVER his team mate because he has earned the right to that preferred strategy over his team mate by way of being first. In Austria, they pitted Hamilton first because a) pitting him first had absolutely no negative effect on Rosberg, while b) it helped Hamilton's race and hence the team's overall result.

Similarly, they pitted Rosberg first in China because it had no effect on Hamilton's race and it protected Rosberg from an attack by Vettel.

As Hamilton himself said in the presser - it's not his job to manage Rosberg's race. It is the team's job to closely monitor the race and instruct as required. To deconstruct it:

1) Before the instruction to drive to a lap time came, Hamilton did nothing wrong in running at the pace he did in lieu of a) no clearly defined lap time from the team, b) Merc suffering from high degradation due to high temps in Malaysia, c) higher track temps than predicted in China, d) last minute decision to run Option tyres in the second stint, e) as the leader of the race, the right to control the pace as he sees fit in lieu of any instruction from the team. Hindsight is wonderful but at that point in time no one knew how well the tyres would last for Mercedes.

2) Rosberg did nothing wrong in complaining that Hamilton was driving too slow, since he could potentially come under threat from Vettel.

3) The team did nothing wrong in instructing Hamilton to increase his pace and drive to a specified lap time.

4) Hamilton did nothing wrong and correctly followed the team's instruction to run to the specified lap time by exactly matching the instructed times.

5) The whole thing only became an issue because Rosberg lost the plot after the race.

I can't help but think that had Hamilton been in Rosberg's position, he would have pushed the lead driver and put him under pressure even if it meant a risk of burning up tyres and potentially finishing worse off than second. That's the difference between the two drivers - Hamilton goes for the wins and backs himself in his ability to put pressure on the driver in front. Rosberg instead had already accepted that he can't put a driver like Hamilton under pressure and settles for second place to preserve his championship chances.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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ismail1991 wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote:
Regle wrote: I don't think we've seen Schumacher humiliating Barrichello or Massa (or any other teammate) and he was even more dominating.
Schumacher had definitive Number One status in the team - he didn't need to break his team mate because the team would always work to put him on the top step. Hamilton doesn't have that so he has to make sure that Rosberg is on the back foot. It's not necessarily pleasant but it's how the game is played.

Schumacher did have a habit of crashing in to his main opposition and parking on apices to ruin qualifying laps, however...
I think radio messages of Rosberg today showed he accepted number 2 status. That's why we can make a direct comparison between Hamilton and Schumacher. As for the habit of crashing into main competitor or preventing your team mate doing a Qualifying time(in the case of Hamilton) is quite common at F1 for a long time. We saw Senna deliberately crashing into Prost at the beginning of the race and trying to say what he had done was the right thing after the race. However nobody talks about that because Schumacher is the ultimate devil. I am quite happy I am a Schumacher fan and after Schumacher I support Hamilton because two of them shows quite well how to win a race and how to act like a top class champion
Rosberg, has never and never will accept No. 2 status! After the race he tweeted that he felt he was faster in the first stint so he attacked Lewis to try an overtake and it didn't work so tried to attack in last stint.

This is not the intentions of a Number 2 driver, contracted or otherwise, so it is clear that is no Number 2 clause in Nico's contract.
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Andres125sx
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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After 3 GPs my only doubt for this season is.... Will Rosberg beat Ferrari drivers? :roll:

Hamilton is on his own, Rosberg looks desperate, he can´t beat Lewis, he know it, and he (as most drivers) can´t cope with that.

I keep my prediction, Lewis will be WDC with 2-3 races left in the season

To me the only interesting thing in this season will be if Ferrari can keep that perfomance during the season (they failed in this aspect on last seasons), and how will be McLaren perfomance curve. I´m sure in few races they will be consistently in Q3, but not sure how much further they will go.

The gap with fastest car has been decreasing... 3.5, 2.5, 1.8. Now they´re at tenths of the midfield groupd, wich is pretty tight, so if they improve some tenths more they will beat them all (midfielders). But we all know it´s not the same to improve 5 tenths when you´re 3 seconds back, than 2 tenths when you´re right there, so that´s one of the most interesting thing to look at this season

Dennis said they´ll bring in a big new package for Barcelona, so they could be on Q3 from that point. But most teams bring in new updates for Barcelona so we´ll see if they really do a step forward

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Phil
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Re: 2015 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 10-12

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It's a pity he never made it into the DRS zone... if he had, I wonder if he would have a realistic chance to pass (speaking purely about the pace between two identical cars and how effective the DRS zone would be in this case).

I think Rosberg was close, but he used his tyres differently. Relatively speaking, he was usually "on it" at the beginning of the stint, whereas it seemed to me Hamilton managed it and always had a larger pace advantage towards the end of the stint. Historically, I always though Rosberg (when the gap was larger) used to do the same; manage the tyres at the start of a stint and then attack towards the end. This probably would have worked better - but not with Vettel so close behind him. So perhaps he didn't have much choice than to drive the way he did.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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