2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[JordanMugen]

Synfuels seem poorly regarded for now from what I've heard (I don't know anything about them though). Some people in the energy industry seem to consider them vapourware or a con.

Probably because it is counter to their narrative, and future funding...

Isn't synthetic fuel their future (or at least what they say it is)? Why would they be against it compared to renewables that would completely put them out of business, if synthetic fuels were truly environmentally viable?

[Zynerji]

Synfuels seem poorly regarded for now from what I've heard (I don't know anything about them though). Some people in the energy industry seem to consider them vapourware or a con.

Probably because it is counter to their narrative, and future funding...

Isn't synthetic fuel their future (or at least what they say it is)? Why would they be against it compared to renewables that would completely put them out of business, if synthetic fuels were truly environmentally viable?

Fear
Uncertainty
Doubt

These things always cause anxiety during change. Even if it aligns with your business, the change will always be met with internal resistance.

[Holm86]

Gotta agree with this take. Hybrids are the worst of both worlds.

But isn't the energy density of batteries too low? (For me, Formula E cars are too slow, there are too many mickey-mouse regeneration zones instead of proper classic flowing circuits, and the races are too short -- just IMO.)

So a compromise of a large battery (some 100-250 kWh but still less than the ~675 kWh of the current liquid fuel) and unlimited electric power, supplemented by combustion drive (or a generator system if preferred) could be the best compromise to allow for Grand Prix car racing for 305km at a reasonable turn of pace?

Motorsport is All about the Senses... Sight, Sound, Smell & Atmosphere...

Lets get back to these Fundamentals...

I really don't get it. Who are expecting F1 to go electric? Not the fans I believe, maybe the politicians.
But the only job F1 has, is to entertain it's fans. So let the fans have a say.

F1 has absolutely no road relevance anyway, 90% of F1 is aero, and none of it has road relevance.


Invest in a plant that uses renewable energy to produce biofuels for F1. And then let them have screaming and powerful ICE engines as the fans want

[mclaren111]

Yip... Gone are the days of Common Sense...

Everthing is a Money Making Racket Now...

I see you are from South Africa. I take it you have lax emissions regulations, lax CO2 taxation and lax fuel excise policies there too?

So at least you can drive down the road in your 4.0L W8 VW Passat (or preferred brand of gas guzzler with oversized engine), and have a car that sounds better than a Grand Prix car...

Reasonable emmissions laws... Tax ridiculously high... Corrupt African Shithole now...

[mzso]

https://www.pitpass.com/70231/New-engin ... ays-Horner

Horner:
"I think it has to address the emotion, the sounds, and yes, of course, it has to tick the sustainable boxes," he added. "But, I think it still needs to be entertaining, otherwise, we should all go and do Formula E.

Some Common Sense at last...

100% Biofuels more than covers "sustainability" issues....

"Sense" as in pointing to something unquantifiable, thoroughly arbitrary and thoroughly sentimental, which is by no means universal.

"otherwise, we should all go and do Formula E" - This is a kindergarten argument. And not even good at that. Because going full electric is practically inevitable...

100% bio-fuel only covers sustainability issues, if you develop a process that uses abundant waste material. Otherwise you'd need to grow plants for the reason of conversion into bio-fuel, which is atrocious.

(Well the FIA claimed to have developed such, but provided no detail, or evidence.)

[mzso]

I really don't get it. Who are expecting F1 to go electric? Not the fans I believe, maybe the politicians.
But the only job F1 has, is to entertain it's fans. So let the fans have a say.

Fans say many different and opposing things, so that's pointless. Most probably have little understanding of technology.

Also, the way I see it, looking at the bigger picture, F1's main value is in developing new and underdeveloped technology that can be used in the real world. Ignoring that would be really damaging.

F1 has absolutely no road relevance anyway, 90% of F1 is aero, and none of it has road relevance.

Aero has no relevance, but everything else has some relevance. Of course you "90%" assessment is pulled out of thin air, and quite far from the truth, especially in the hybrid era. And the importance of aero will probably drop remarkably next year...

Invest in a plant that uses renewable energy to produce biofuels for F1. And then let them have screaming and powerful ICE engines as the fans want

That would technically be synthetic fuel.

Everybody seems to be talking in the name of all fans. But all I see is a loud whiny minority who take every opportunity to yell "bring back v12 screamers."

[mzso]

Back to F1, there's no real focus to that. It's maybe just not viable to race EV cars at this point of the development of EV cars. We're just limited by range.

Well, as I detailed somewhat in my apparently invisible previous replies, fuel cells could work, with bio-fuel. I'm doubtful about hydrogen, based on its fundamental physical properties.

Batteries for the foreseeable future will be too heavy.

[NL_Fer]

The problem is, that no sponsor want to touch a screening gas guzzling V-12. So the teams and fans have to pay for them. Plus refueling systems, etc. I even doubt if oil companies want to market dinosaur engines.

[JordanMugen]

The problem is, that no sponsor want to touch a screening gas guzzling V-12.

Yet Ferrari still makes them even to this day. So there must be some kind of market for it?

Overly large combustion engine capacity, screeching sound, gas guzzling -- the Ferrari V12s do absolutely everything wrong. Given their terrible characteristics, why weren't they phased out 10-15 years ago?

Harry's Garage: Ferrari 812 Superfast

[gruntguru]

Yep, Gordon Murray had no problem pre-selling his production run of GMA-T50 including amazing Cosworth V12.

[JordanMugen]

Yep, Gordon Murray had no problem pre-selling his production run of GMA-T50 including amazing Cosworth V12.

It seems baffling that Murray would choose such an outdated "dinosaur" ICE, when it could have been a nice battery EV or a least a twin-turbo V6 hybrid like the Honda NSX or Ferrari 296.

Heck the T50 even has a H-pattern manual transmission. Manuals tend to do poorly in WLTP fuel economy testing, as the manufacturer can not precisely control when gear ratios are chosen, nor ensure the vehicle reaches the highest gear ratio ASAP.

It's almost if Murray is using GMA's low-volume exemption from EU WLTP as an excuse to blatantly ignore the 95 g CO2/km fleet average which car manufacturers like GMA should strive to achieve even when they are not legally obliged to under low-volume exemptions...

[Jolle]

Ferrari went from big V12’s for the GT, supersport and hypercar to just a V12 in the supersport. The other two are now a V8T and a V8TH.
Their best selling small models went from V8, to V8T and now V6TH.

McLaren is more obvious. From V12, to V8T and now a V6TH.

That Murray (and AM) sell a small run of V12’s, good for them. But the cars with a bit of production capacity are all going V6.

[JordanMugen]

That Murray (and AM) sell a small run of V12’s, good for them. But the cars with a bit of production capacity are all going V6.

Strangely the Honda NSX Hybrid with the V6 twin-turbo has had extremely poor sales, being outsold by the Audi R8 with an archaic, dinosaur V10 engine and no hybrid system. It's rather inexplicable.

McLaren is more obvious... V6TH.

McLaren are claiming 129 g CO2/km, which is very impressive.

The McLaren Artura is a guilt-free £185,500 hybrid supercar

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/lifestyle ... ra-preview

Interestingly, the likes of fashion magazines like GQ seem to be more understanding of the importance of CO2/km than the likes of Evo magazine who seem to rarely mention it.

[Just_a_fan]

Synfuels seem poorly regarded for now from what I've heard (I don't know anything about them though). Some people in the energy industry seem to consider them vapourware or a con.

Probably because it is counter to their narrative, and future funding...

Isn't synthetic fuel their future (or at least what they say it is)? Why would they be against it compared to renewables that would completely put them out of business, if synthetic fuels were truly environmentally viable?

The key point is the "if" in your post.

[Just_a_fan]

Yep, Gordon Murray had no problem pre-selling his production run of GMA-T50 including amazing Cosworth V12.

And he sold how many?

Specialist toys will always sell - 100 units sold to 8 billion people is easy.

Sell 100,000 units per year for 10 years and see how it goes.