Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

[dans79]

So how are the teams going to stiffen up the rear wings? Is it going to be a big time or big money consuming thing?

I saw some place today, that horner claimed it could/would cost $500,000 to change the wings, and that sounds like highly suspect to me. You need to change the orientations of the plys, and maybe and another one or 2, or change the modulus of the CF you're using. That should not cost 500k, you don't need to massively rework the aero of the car like he was hinting at.

Honestly, it's probably something they could get done between races if they wanted to. Instead they are putting on a dog and pony show, and claiming its a huge thing because they don't want to have to delay anything they already have in the pipeline with regards to upgrades (imo).

[El Scorchio]

Horner cracks me up. Telling the world with a smirk on his face Aston should just stop whinging about the reg change a few short weeks ago and the rules were the same for everyone, now he’s doing exactly the same about this change regarding the wing tests.

[RZS10]

So how are the teams going to stiffen up the rear wings? Is it going to be a big time or big money consuming thing?

I saw some place today, that horner claimed it could/would cost $500,000 to change the wings, and that sounds like highly suspect to me. You need to change the orientations of the plys, and maybe and another one or 2, or change the modulus of the CF you're using. That should not cost 500k, you don't need to massively rework the aero of the car like he was hinting at.

Honestly, it's probably something they could get done between races if they wanted to. Instead they are putting on a dog and pony show, and claiming its a huge thing because they don't want to have to delay anything they already have in the pipeline with regards to upgrades (imo).

Well if you want to build a wing that would just about pass the new test but could still bend then it would obviously be more expensive than just making the current one comply with it, eh?

[RZS10]

-The FIA started looking into this in mid/late June last season (by the way, Meredes rear wing was the one on the spot light at the time).

You keep claiming this but you haven't backed it up once and looking at the order of races and events the only conclusion one can come to is that it's factually incorrect.

The very first race happened in early July, the second one was mid July where people noticed the flex on RBRs wing (the video in this thread is from the Styrian GP) then the Merc rear wing was moved into the spotlight by Nugnes after the 70th Anniversary Grand Prix in mid August.

The earliest article talking about the FIA wanting to change the test however is from 5 days after the Styrian GP, guess which wing it is highlighting and which wing was "on the spot light"?

Those articles also quote Tombazis with:
"We do hope to make some enhancements to the regulations and to the deflection test sometime in the not so distant future. But we want to do it reasonably carefully and not to rush it and make a wrong call. We'd like to address that matter. It is not a five minute job, but it's on our job list."

Which implies that they wanted to work out a test that they feel would be "[...] one that most closely mimic[s] the real load cases that a component can see on the track." but didn't want to rush it.

They did not have any conrete test defined and/or properly planned then, they essentially had it on their "to-do-list", so it's not like they were ready in July 2020, put everything into a drawer and decided to suddenly use it ten months later.

I searched the internet with a custom range (June 2020) and there is not a single article mentioning any new tests - but maybe you have one you could point us to.

You can imply that the reason why the test got "delayed" has something to do with Mercedes and them being "on the spot light" as many times as you want but it won't make it more true or any less speculative.
______________
Motorsport total claims that to their knowledge the teams affected are Red Bull, Ferrari, Alpine and Alfa Romeo.

That's the top3 in my "ranking" + Alfa

[f1rules]

just force the rule changes through, no way in hell it should be allowed in baku! suck it up horner. But intriguing to see the fight going on out in the open as rb merc want to gain advantage without bringing updates cause all resources are dedicated to next years car, and this will for sure continue all year so all suspected dirty clothe will be hang out to dry

[feni_remmen]

I dislike the current rule set, but we need to realise that these solutions are just part of the exercise that is formula 1. The FIA proposed and implemented a testing procedure and the teams constructed components to pass the tests. The expense comes when the FIA forces through procedural alterations in short timeframes. I really don't care; the teams will spend whatever money they can on the problem. I don't see why they don't let this run through to the end of the year. It's interesting engineering and just another set of solutions to a complex set of limitations.

[El Scorchio]

I dislike the current rule set, but we need to realise that these solutions are just part of the exercise that is formula 1. The FIA proposed and implemented a testing procedure and the teams constructed components to pass the tests. The expense comes when the FIA forces through procedural alterations in short timeframes. I really don't care; the teams will spend whatever money they can on the problem. I don't see why they don't let this run through to the end of the year. It's interesting engineering and just another set of solutions to a complex set of limitations.

Because what some rear wings are doing is against the regulations. That’s why.

However on the engineering solutions and cleverness part of your post I agree. It very clever. But it’s against the regulations so it either has to come off or also pass all the new tests too.

[JordanMugen]

Because what some rear wings are doing is against the regulations. That’s why.

But it’s against the regulations so it either has to come off or also pass all the new tests too.

All of the front wings are also against the regulations.

Why should parts not deemed illegal by the FIA, be it front wings or rear wings, need to come off any cars? If FIA wants to clamp down, they will put a revised test and that is no issue. It's all very straightforward.

[El Scorchio]

Because what some rear wings are doing is against the regulations. That’s why.

But it’s against the regulations so it either has to come off or also pass all the new tests too.

All of the front wings are also against the regulations.

Why should parts not deemed illegal by the FIA, be it front wings or rear wings, need to come off any cars? If FIA wants to clamp down, they will put a revised test and that is no issue. It's all very straightforward.

That is an interesting point. I can only think there's an element of 'they are all doing it with the front wings, so no-one has a perceived advantage, so we can leave it.' Of course it is a bit of a double standard to say that while clamping down on rear wings. But I suppose only some of the teams are exploiting those.

[JordanMugen]

Toto said if they don't enforce it, then they'll be forced to invest and join the fray for Baku. Not that it isn't against the spirit, but if the FIA doesn't want to act, then, they too will do it.

They are perfectly entitled to build a flexible rear wing endplate, consistent with the new test, or even the current test if they can build it in time.

Such rear wings have been around for quite some time, Mercedes have had plenty of chance to build one before now.

[peaty]

-The FIA started looking into this in mid/late June last season (by the way, Meredes rear wing was the one on the spot light at the time).

You keep claiming this but you haven't backed it up once and looking at the order of races and events the only conclusion one can come to is that it's factually incorrect.

The very first race happened in early July, the second one was mid July where people noticed the flex on RBRs wing (the video in this thread is from the Styrian GP) then the Merc rear wing was moved into the spotlight by Nugnes after the 70th Anniversary Grand Prix in mid August.

Did F1 teams went straight into the season or there was a pre-season in 2020!? So, start there.
A lot of things happen between pre-season and the first race.

The earliest article talking about the FIA wanting to change the test however is from 5 days after the Styrian GP, guess which wing it is highlighting and which wing was "on the spot light"?


Those articles also quote Tombazis with:
"We do hope to make some enhancements to the regulations and to the deflection test sometime in the not so distant future. But we want to do it reasonably carefully and not to rush it and make a wrong call. We'd like to address that matter. It is not a five minute job, but it's on our job list."

Which implies that they wanted to work out a test that they feel would be "[...] one that most closely mimic[s] the real load cases that a component can see on the track." but didn't want to rush it.

They did not have any conrete test defined and/or properly planned then, they essentially had it on their "to-do-list", so it's not like they were ready in July 2020, put everything into a drawer and decided to suddenly use it ten months later.

I searched the internet with a custom range (June 2020) and there is not a single article mentioning any new tests - but maybe you have one you could point us to.

You're right, the first article is from mid july. However, it's your interpretation that they didn't have anything concrete. They did indeed, but not formally (they didn't make it official). was just a coincidence that they release the new test procedure after Hamilton talked to the media or are you trying to say that they finalize the test procedures because Hamilton complained?

Also, following your arguments of finding articles to "prove" your theory...which wing was in the spot light you said? Because the first article of a specific team that comes up is Wolff denying. Tombazis didn't mentioned RBR, did he?

You can imply that the reason why the test got "delayed" has something to do with Mercedes and them being "on the spot light" as many times as you want but it won't make it more true or any less speculative.

Well, like it or not the FIA introduced the new test after Mercedes complaint to the media. As you would say, that is "factually correct". They didn't need to protest nor seek clarification as any other team would have to. That speaks volumens about Mercedes power once again.

That's the very reason for people thinking that the hybrid era is a very expensive publicity stunt.

______________
Motorsport total claims that to their knowledge the teams affected are Red Bull, Ferrari, Alpine and Alfa Romeo.

That's the top3 in my "ranking" + Alfa

What a surprise, not a single Mercedes powered car is on the list!
I would love to see the rear wings of all cars during the first 3 races.

[Big Tea]

Any of our materials experts able to answer please, what would be the effect of cooling (or heating) the 'flexing' component prior to testing? If they were able to cool it with say co2 on the way to the test station would it stiffen up and pass the test at that time?

[RZS10]

Did F1 teams went straight into the season or there was a pre-season in 2020!? So, start there.
A lot of things happen between pre-season and the first race.

[...] it's your interpretation that they didn't have anything concrete. They did indeed, but not formally (they didn't make it official).

Also, following your arguments of finding articles to "prove" your theory...which wing was in the spot light you said? Because the first article of a specific team that comes up is Wolff denying. Tombazis didn't mentioned RBR, did he?
[...]

I would love to see the rear wings of all cars during the first 3 races.

It's ironic that you seem to believe that what i posted is "my theory" that i would somehow have to prove (what a joke putting that word in quotation marks) when all I did is provide a timeline of events that is easily verfiable with some online searches.
There is absolutely no "theory" it's all facts that contradict what you claim, on the other hand most of what you posted is pure speculation that you cannot prove anyways and is heavily bordering on conspiracy theory territory - it's that easy.

No one talked about flexing wings during pre-season testing, not a single article mentioning it, not a single use of the word "flexing" or "flex" or similar on the forum in the 2020 pre-season testing thread.

There's a direct quote from Tombazis that they did not have anything ready and that it was merely on their to-do list.
Of course being in an official function for the FIA he did not single out any competitor.

Thinking that they had a test ready at that time is highly speculative and would require that Tombazis lied.
Thinking that they then delayed it because Nugnes thought he saw the Merc wing "snap" into corners is plain silly.

First time media talked about flexing rear wings? After Austria.
First wing media talked about? Red Bull's.
Wing that wasn't being talked about at that time? Mercedes'.

Here's one of the articles.

Obviously the order of events regarding the introduction of the new test is clear, it was announced after Hamilton mentioned the wing, however saying that one was actually caused by the other is, again, just highly speculative.

It's also clear that Mercedes was lobbying for the test to be brought forward, just like other teams lobbied for other things to get banned previously - without a formal protest or asking for a clarification. This doesn't prove that Mercedes has any special "power", unless of course their main competitors have the same power but then it's not really that special, is it?

Of course you're free to believe whatever you want but bringing up your very own (conspiracy) theory every few days doesn't add anything to this topic at all.

I fully agree with the very last sentence though, i'd love to have rear facing shots of all cars from all previous races, different wing setups and versions, DRS open/closed, that would be extremely insightful.

[godlameroso]

You know that those 4 pixels represent an illegal displacement of the wing.

I know it's not really worth replying to this but here i go: read what i wrote properly. Nowhere do i write that anything we can observe could be used to determine whether any of the wings are legal or illegal.

You can watch the videos and the wings' movement is absolutely evident without any gifs or lines, those just point out what is happening in the videos they're sourced from and it helps seeing the extent of any flexing that is going on (on all the wings) - you don't need to count pixels for that, but i know that it's your cheap way of dismissing the very clear evidence ... lol

At this point i'm not sure whether you're just merely pretending, or?

You are though. You people keep claiming the wing is illegal and bending too much, sorry you contradict yourself too much to take seriously. It's not illegal now, and will remain legal, and you will still huff and puff that I'm somehow wrong despite the FIA giving it the all clear.

[Juzh]

So how are the teams going to stiffen up the rear wings? Is it going to be a big time or big money consuming thing?

I saw some place today, that horner claimed it could/would cost $500,000 to change the wings, and that sounds like highly suspect to me. You need to change the orientations of the plys, and maybe and another one or 2, or change the modulus of the CF you're using. That should not cost 500k, you don't need to massively rework the aero of the car like he was hinting at.

Honestly, it's probably something they could get done between races if they wanted to. Instead they are putting on a dog and pony show, and claiming its a huge thing because they don't want to have to delay anything they already have in the pipeline with regards to upgrades (imo).

Vasseur agrees it's not gonna be a cheap fix:
https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/21/ben ... eur-warns/