Lewis Hamilton has won the Turkish Grand Prix in Istanbul after closely following the Red Bulls until they knocked each other out. Jenson Button was second, while Mark Webber managed to finish third after an extra stop. Sebastian Vettel didn't make it to the finish.
Ringo I think the bast way to assess the crash is to look at the line LH took behind coming into the same braking zone. LH was already pulling to the right long before SV made his move the right. Webber clearly held Vettel on the left much longer than he should have. Watching the replay you can see Mark had not moved to the right at all until Vettel started to turn right. They were at the rumble strips and Mark still refused to take the normal racing line... dirty. Its clear he was trying to hold a position he had lost. The more video I look at the more I have to side with Mark failing to move the right when he should have.
Its a hard call but I think Mark should be happy he was able to salvage 3ed as that scrap could have ended both their races. I wonder what kind of terms SV and MW are on after that race.
Well, I've had many a rant on Webber's moves when protecting his position, but I have to say that anyone who thinks this was anything more than blind arrogance on Vettel's part is grossly mistaken. Webber left plenty of room. He didn't give Vettel the ideal line, but he doesn't have to. The position isn't a gift, it has to be earned, and usually, that means you have to make it stick even when you can't have the best line. Vettel's, and RB's reaction shows one thing and one thing only - that they fully expected Webber to move over and gift the position.
Vettel tried to bully his way into the best line, assuming he could push Mark over much as he did with Hamilton in the pit lane incident. He came out the worst for it this time, and hopefully it will make him think twice before doing it again. He's got great potential, but lately he's been headed down the same path as the early Schumacher, arrogantly and dangerously pushing others around on track.
i Wow thought webber would probably tangle with hamilton but never take his own teammate out
but what happenned with button/hamilton? button looked quicker, he steamed past him
had hamilton turned the whick down and got caught napping? did button have more left in the tires?
They definitely called them off with that message to "save fuel"... Button looked pissed in the press conferance. I think hamilton deserved the win since he put the work that caused the error with the redbulls.
avatar wrote:Avoiding the Webber/Vettel, Hamilton/Button stuff for now....
Quick question:
BBC coverage - F1 Forum coverage on red button (Freeview ch301) was dropped in favour of French Open Tennis. I searched high and low on for it on the web:
> BBC Sport site
> BBC F1 site
> Youtube
> even BBCF1's Facebook
but the closest I found was the BBC 606 forums
Any ideas where to find it in case it gets bumped again in future?
I did the same, apparently it was online. just wait until it comes on iPlayer I think.
BBC Coverage today was terrible. Radio 5 Live F1 had it's own DAB channel. Was dumped off normal Radio 5 coverage (online and normal radio) It had its own stream online as well.
I think BBC has taken on far too many sports this year. Rugby, F1 and Tennis all in one alongside the normal tele. I think use of BBC3 during these sort of days as well as red button may be required.
"It could be done manually. It would take quite a while, but it could be done. There is however a much more efficient and accurate way of getting the data. Men with lasers." Wing Commander Andy Green
Hamilton and Button didn't look too happy with the 1-2 finish! Maybe Button switched from "fuel saving" mode to full steam for the lap he attacked, how else could the speed difference be explained?
nacho wrote:Hamilton and Button didn't look too happy with the 1-2 finish! Maybe Button switched from "fuel saving" mode to full steam for the lap he attacked, how else could the speed difference be explained?
I thought that too. LH did not express the joy of winning the way he usually does. Not in the radio, not after he got out of the car, not on the podium and also the whole pres=conference was weird.....
nacho wrote:Hamilton and Button didn't look too happy with the 1-2 finish! Maybe Button switched from "fuel saving" mode to full steam for the lap he attacked, how else could the speed difference be explained?
I thought that too. LH did not express the joy of winning the way he usually does. Not in the radio, not after he got out of the car, not on the podium and also the whole pres=conference was weird.....
He said later that he didn't feel like he'd won the race on merit.
I have to admit that even though I'm a McLaren fan and the race had all the elements of excitement, it seemed to have an odd aftertaste.
dan wrote:i Wow thought webber would probably tangle with hamilton but never take his own teammate out
but what happenned with button/hamilton? button looked quicker, he steamed past him
had hamilton turned the whick down and got caught napping? did button have more left in the tires?
They definitely called them off with that message to "save fuel"... Button looked pissed in the press conferance. I think hamilton deserved the win since he put the work that caused the error with the redbulls.
Lap times say otherwise, wish i could find them now, laps 46-50. Button made 4 tenths up in one lap alone, showing hamilton turned down his motor as per the team's request.
Other proof that Hamilton's pace was still there is how he decisively retook position within a few turns. Button was not held back by the team after the overtake, he was gunning it and hamilton blew his flames out in turn 3.
Beyond that he calmed down and Hamilton gave him a gap.
nacho wrote:Hamilton and Button didn't look too happy with the 1-2 finish! Maybe Button switched from "fuel saving" mode to full steam for the lap he attacked, how else could the speed difference be explained?
I thought that too. LH did not express the joy of winning the way he usually does. Not in the radio, not after he got out of the car, not on the podium and also the whole pres=conference was weird.....
He said later that he didn't feel like he'd won the race on merit.
I have to admit that even though I'm a McLaren fan and the race had all the elements of excitement, it seemed to have an odd aftertaste.
It is always bad taste when victory falls into your hand. It is not like Hamilton has beaten Vettel and Weber. In the matter fact RedBull shoot them self into foot. Perhaps "fuel saving" order was given instead of "don't race each other". However it is worth noticing that McLaren was the only team to match RedBulls speed.
Regardless of Vettel/Webber fault, it's nice to have a "real" controversy to talk about after the race instead of the legalistic rule parsing that was necessary after Schumacher's last lap pass at Monaco. The nature of the debate today is so much more interesting than two weeks ago.
My perspective on today-
At China when Alonso passed Massa on the pit entry lane there was some commentator who superbly described it as Alonso "imposing his will" on Massa because he knew he could. Today Vettel had the basic pass done but he went for bonus points by trying to "impose his will" with the jinx back across Webber. He found out he couldn't impose his will on Webber. There is a difference between Massa and Webber.
As the images and video show, SV drifts across the the track towards MW. Webbers line does not alter from the crest on the straight until the impact.
Should Webber have moved over is a different question. Vettel is clearly not being squeezed, he has more space in picture 4 (just before impact) than when he started the overtake.
I have to say, it's easy to judge in retrospect but these guys were at the heat of the moment, so my view is simple racing incident. Apparently the stewards agree, otherwise either MW or SV would have been investigated, so I don't see why it has to go on and on whose fault it was!
Whether one of the two should have backed off is another story, and not an issue of laying the blame. Put simply, and in retrospect, I would have thought Vettel should have backed off. The reasons are numerous:
a) It was his freaking team mate and they were first and second. Too much to risk 18 laps before the end. The Maccas seemed to be unable to overtake during the RBs during the whole race. Had it been the first lap it might have been different.
b) It was him who took the risk, so should have been prepared to back off if it didn't work and try again later.
c) He wouldn't loose any face by backing off and trying again. Thinking about it, Webber really had no choice but to play hard: had he succumbed to the pressure, everybody on the grid would be all over him given half a chance and expect him to back off. Mind games may be worth a Championship in F1. I'm sure after today everybody, and especially Vettel, will be double cautious when attempting a pass on Webber, and why shouldn't they?
d) Given the line he had (almost on the grass), he should have been prepared to brake much earlier anyway: had he not done so he would have still gone straight ahead and picked up Webber anyway! How stupid would that be?
All in all, what a pity for Red Bull. They should have had an advantage similar to Brawn's last year by this stage of the Championship. They don't. McLaren is catching up, and if RB lose it this year they're never going to get it.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft
nacho wrote:Hamilton and Button didn't look too happy with the 1-2 finish! Maybe Button switched from "fuel saving" mode to full steam for the lap he attacked, how else could the speed difference be explained?
I thought that too. LH did not express the joy of winning the way he usually does. Not in the radio, not after he got out of the car, not on the podium and also the whole pres=conference was weird.....
I liked that actually. It seems to me Hamilton is getting "grounded" sort of. He drove a nice race without mistakes and got the win. But he is capable of putting things in relation. If he manages to build up on that he is only going to get better. Kudos to him.
The race, after all, was great to watch. Turkey is one of the more entertaining events. Having 2 team battles for the lead in one race is something I haven't seen in ages. Thumbs up.
I really enjoyed this race. I don't remember ever seeing (in F1) the same top 4 cars being within 3 secs for 42(?) laps (except the pitstops) before the Bulls 'locked horns'. Team mate seemed to be pretty much on equal pace in both teams. Great stuff. I'd like to see that in Montreal, but without the snafu bit in the end.
Last edited by Pandamasque on 30 May 2010, 23:27, edited 1 time in total.
