2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

[Juzh]

Texas, was because of the banking and was about vertical Gs not lateral Gs

And sustained. Can't be compared to F1.

[hollus]

Barcelona:
Winner's time in 2013: 1:39:16.6
Winner's time in 2014: 1:41:05.2
Over 66 laps this equals 1.65 second per lap of deficit.
This is one of the tracks were downforce matters most. I think that together with less pit stops and the correspondingly longer stints, the fact that it is the fastest laps that have the largest drop in time is making the new formula look, or maybe just be, particularly bad.
It is quite thinkable that by the end of the season race times will have dropped below their equivalent 2013 ones and people will still complain that it is slower. And in some ways it will be!

[bhall]

Speaking only for myself, the performance of this year's cars doesn't constitute the sole reason for my discontent. Rather, it's the straw that broke the camel's back following years of mounting frustration.

2007 Spanish Grand Prix (the first race on the current layout): Massa, 1:31:36.2, average: 1:23.3
2014 Spanish Grand Prix: Hamilton, 1:41:05.2, average: 1:31.9

2007 Spanish GP2 round, sprint: Glock, 38:08.6, average: 1:28

You could take a seven-year-old car from a feeder series and clobber the W05 Hybrid, this year's best and well on its way to being considered one of the all-time greats.

[beelsebob]

Speaking only for myself, the performance of this year's cars doesn't constitute the sole reason for my discontent. Rather, it's the straw that broke the camel's back following years of mounting frustration.

2007 Spanish Grand Prix (the first race on the current layout): Massa, 1:31:36.2, average: 1:23.3
2014 Spanish Grand Prix: Hamilton, 1:41:05.2, average: 1:31.9

2007 Spanish GP2 round, sprint: Glock, 38:08.6, average: 1:28

You could take a seven-year-old car from a feeder series and clobber the W05 Hybrid, this year's best and well on its way to being considered one of the all-time greats.

http://i.imgur.com/noEQeKT.jpg

Again, as other people have said, many times. No you couldn't, because the GP2 car would run out of fuel. If you put enough fuel in (an imaginary infinite tank) for it to be able to complete the race, it would be much much slower than that average time.

[bhall]

And if my grandmother had balls, she'd be my grandfather.

Of course, F1 cars carry more fuel. That's part of the problem. But, pointing that out is a bit like saying, "Well, if the rules allowed for faster cars, then the cars would be faster."

We know that already. It's the whole point of this discussion.

[beelsebob]

And if my grandmother had balls, she'd be my grandfather.

Of course, F1 cars carry more fuel. That's part of the problem. But, pointing that out is a bit like saying, "Well, if the rules allowed for faster cars, then the cars would be faster."

We know that already. It's the whole point of this discussion.

No, the point is not that the F1 cars carry more fuel, it's that the F1 cars are doing something those GP2 cars are not capable of. They are completing a race.

If you want to just directly compare the cars as they are, try taking a modern F1 car and completing a GP2 race in it. Better yet, allow them to repackage the car based on the much smaller fuel tank.

Oh look, suddenly the F1 car is much faster.

It's interesting that you're complaining that the 2007 GP2 cars were faster on average over a race, but you weren't last year, when the 2007 GP2 cars were faster on average over a race, and the difference was still that the GP2 cars were not required to complete an F1 race distance.

As an alternative to seeing why your position is so dumb... Zomg, the F1 cars qualified in 1:25! Clearly they're much much faster than the GP2 cars (when they don't have to complete anywhere near as many laps).

[bhall]

Oh, I complained last year, too.

It should go without saying that all cars are designed around the rules for the series in which they'll be driven. The point here is that the 2007 GP2 rules produced faster cars that year for GP2 than the 2014 F1 rules produce this year for F1. In other words, the 2007 GP2 series was faster.

If the rules were different, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[myurr]

Barcelona:
Winner's time in 2013: 1:39:16.6
Winner's time in 2014: 1:41:05.2
Over 66 laps this equals 1.65 second per lap of deficit.
This is one of the tracks were downforce matters most. I think that together with less pit stops and the correspondingly longer stints, the fact that it is the fastest laps that have the largest drop in time is making the new formula look, or maybe just be, particularly bad.
It is quite thinkable that by the end of the season race times will have dropped below their equivalent 2013 ones and people will still complain that it is slower. And in some ways it will be!

Quite honestly I would much rather have this years rules with the cars actually needing to be driven by skilled drivers than the "on rails" cars that were able to lap a couple of seconds quicker. The visual display of skill is far more exciting than watching the stop watch and marvelling at how a number is slightly lower. Can't wait to see them round Monaco - for a change, at least in recent years, it should be a really serious test for the drivers and spectacular to watch the very best making their cars dance around that circuit.

[beelsebob]

Oh, I complained last year, too.

It should go without saying that all cars are designed around the rules for the series in which they'll be driven. The point here is that the 2007 GP2 rules produced faster cars that year for GP2 than the 2014 F1 rules produce this year for F1. In other words, the 2007 GP2 series was faster.

If the rules were different, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Except again - your evidence of them being faster cars is their average lap time over fewer laps than the F1 cars were doing. And again, you can trivially twist that around - the F1 cars do 1:25s when averaged over 1 lap instead of 66.

[ESPImperium]

Comparing a GP2/05 car in 2007 at the end of its 3 year development cycle with ultra hard GP2 Bridgestone slicks against a 2014 Mercedes W05 Hybrid that is at the start of the development cycle of the new aerodynamic and engine formula is ridiculous. The track was different then as well, the last Chichane was not in operation till 2008 i think, thats worth 5 seconds a lap.

In F1 CE i can do a 1:18 lap in a Toyota TF106, but a Mercedes W05 in the 2013 F1 game im doing a 1:23.

Its like comparing a modern day Barcelona with Messi and Neymar against a 60s Real Madrid with Puskas and Di Stefano. You just can't do it.

[Andres125sx]

So car development is stifled because tracks can't handle it? The sport should be developing tracks in line with car performance...

Sorry but that´s exactly what they´re doing.

Tilke tracks are prepared for much faster cars, but with tracks like Monaco on the calendar they´re useless.

[Andres125sx]

How do you pass out from lateral G? it doesn't really pull blood out of the brain.

Considering it's texas, they probably passed out from the heat.

We should ask a doctor, buy I gues the blood pressure have some limit whatever direction the Gs are applied

Also, I don´t think here the problem is just the G force, but the overall effort. 5 lateral Gs is a huge effort for the neck, and for almost 2hours. It´s not supporting 5G´s, it´s being able to support 5G´s for 2 hours, and last lap, when you´re phisically destroyed, you have to support it the same as first lap, or even higher because your tank is empty.

This is not a rocket launch, or a Dragster race, this is racing for 2 hours, and that lowers any limit by a good amount. You can´t compare F1 G´s with any other field, first because the direction of the G´s change it all, lateral G´s are a lot more demanding phisically speaking, and second because of the period of time they have to support that effort

[bhall]

...

I'll concede that it was wrong for me to make a direct comparison between the cars. You're right about that.

However, comparisons between series are perfectly valid, and it's undeniable that contemporary Formula One is now significantly slower than both previous versions of itself and, in some cases, anything considered to be the historical apogee of other series it used to dominate.

That means there was a time when seeing cars perform at current F1 levels typically meant you were actually watching a support series like GP2 or Formula Masters, and no one ever bought a ticket to a grand prix just to watch those opening acts. No, the major draw was something else entirely, a series guaranteed to blow the doors off of anything else that came before it. But, now performance levels once seen as a warmup to the big show have become the big show, and the tail-end of the big show is occasionally slower than the support. That's unprecedented.

I make no judgment of those who enjoy the current iteration of Formula One, even if that party seems curiously composed of a whole lot of folks who'd probably identify as Hamilton fans. Hey, we all have our preferences. I just think it's important for those who find themselves in that camp to realize that today's F1 represents a significant deviation from historical standards, and it probably shouldn't be a surprise when others lash out against it, especially given the oft-repeated motive for the sport's transformation.

What the sport calls innovation, I call 40-year-old technology.

[Juzh]

The track was different then as well, the last Chichane was not in operation till 2008 i think, thats worth 5 seconds a lap.

Track wasn't different. 2007 cars raced on the current circuit version.

[beelsebob]

That means there was a time when seeing cars perform at current F1 levels typically meant you were actually watching a support series like GP2 or Formula Masters, and no one ever bought a ticket to a grand prix just to watch those opening acts. No, the major draw was something else entirely, a series guaranteed to blow the doors off of anything else that came before it.

Incorrect assumption. The major draw was not that, as evidence by the fact that circuits are still pulling in the crowds. The major draw instead is that people get to watch their favourite famous drivers doing their thing.

That is, F1 is about the peak of driving ability, not about the peak of technological advancement.