2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

[TFSA]

The driving guidelines say that stewards will consider being ahead or behind, among other factors, when determining ‘significant portion’. Anyone thinking that setting there to not require to leave space for the overtaking car is erasing a lot of precedent, from this year alone.

Somehow Monza 2019 should have been a penalty for Charles, or Monza this year with Charles and Perez. But here Russell is side by side and Ham would be allowed to just smash him?

Wat?

Not for outside over.

Outside overtakes, the general rule is that if you aren't ahead from the apex, you either back out of the overtake, or you risk getting run off the road at your own peril.

We saw this in Silverstone 22, when Mick Schumacher ran out of road trying to overtake Verstappen on the outside. He wasn't ahead from the apex, so he wasn't entitled to space - and stewards didn't investigate.

Edit: And again: The overtaking guidelines have been in effect from 2022. Therefore, bringing incidents from earlier years into the discussion is futile, as they are not judged by the same standards. You have to compare to incidents from 2022 and forwards.

[Juzh]

Ive looked at all camera angles and cant see hamilton ahead anywhere apart from mentioned reason - too late braking. I will admit camera angles are scetchy so its hard to say for certain but based on overspeed from russell im quite sure he was ahead on entry, thus entitled to space.

Again: When it's an overtake on the outside, you have to be ahead from the apex (read: at and after). That's not on corner entry. Entry is the judge for inside overtakes.

From the Discord (credit to RZS)
https://i.imgur.com/RR530Oy.png

Rules also say you have to drive between the white lines. Hamilton did not make the corner. He was determined to not get passed there.

I'm pretty sure you're misreading that rule. The way i read that rule, and also based on stewards decisions supporting this, that's about making sure the car being overtaken (in this case Hamilton) isn't run off the track or squeezed.

At this point hamilton is ahead only because he braked too late and went off himself in the process, undeniably he went in too hot becase he himself wasnt able to stay on track. If you're of a different opinion thats fine by me

[Cs98]

Russell is on a shallower inside line for the last part of straight and is thus gaining ground of hamilton who has to cover more distance. He has wheels ahead coming into corner and the only reason hamilton is anywhere near alongside him in first part of spoon is because he brakes way too late from the very tight entry on the inside line. This is a very similar mentality as in Singapore (or spain in russel's case), just don't brake for a corner or attempt to slot in between cars, take an escape route, and then claim you were ahead.
Russell of all drivers prevented a collision here which would be entirely hamilton's fault.

George got ahead of Lewis shortly, but he fell behind again just before they reached the apex.

However, overtaking guidelines for outside overtakes stipulate, that you have to be ahead "from" (!!) the apex. George wasn't. As such, he's not entitled to space.

That is what the guidelines say, but you need to take into account that Lewis left the track in his defensive move. Being ahead "from the apex" is quite easy if you can just extend the track on exit and push the other guy off. It's similar to Brazil 2021, which I feel was one of the incidents which brought about the 2022 guidelines clarification. If he stays on track he is entitled to put the squeeze on.

[ringo]

The driving guidelines say that stewards will consider being ahead or behind, among other factors, when determining ‘significant portion’. Anyone thinking that setting there to not require to leave space for the overtaking car is erasing a lot of precedent, from this year alone.

Somehow Monza 2019 should have been a penalty for Charles, or Monza this year with Charles and Perez. But here Russell is side by side and Ham would be allowed to just smash him?

Wat?

Not side by side at all. That corner's shape dictates a very tight and late entry as its like a hairpin. Use russel's camera. When the squeezing starts his car is behind.

[dialtone]

This is the rule for outside:

In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner. The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track.

Even here is ‘among the various factors when exercising their discretion’.

If the behavior of the overtaken car isn’t safe they will penalize even if they were ahead. In my humblest opinion they would have penalized here if it wasn’t among teammates.

Edit: also note that the car being overtaken needs to stay within the track limits.

[ringo]

Russell is on a shallower inside line for the last part of straight and is thus gaining ground of hamilton who has to cover more distance. He has wheels ahead coming into corner and the only reason hamilton is anywhere near alongside him in first part of spoon is because he brakes way too late from the very tight entry on the inside line. This is a very similar mentality as in Singapore (or spain in russel's case), just don't brake for a corner or attempt to slot in between cars, take an escape route, and then claim you were ahead.
Russell of all drivers prevented a collision here which would be entirely hamilton's fault.

George got ahead of Lewis shortly, but he fell behind again just before they reached the apex.

However, overtaking guidelines for outside overtakes stipulate, that you have to be ahead "from" (!!) the apex. George wasn't. As such, he's not entitled to space.

That is what the guidelines say, but you need to take into account that Lewis left the track in his defensive move. Being ahead "from the apex" is quite easy if you can just extend the track on exit and push the other guy off. It's similar to Brazil 2021, which I feel was one of the incidents which brought about the 2022 guidelines clarification. If he stays on track he is entitled to put the squeeze on.

When did Lewis leave the track? What are you referring to? Did you see all 4 wheels off.
Someone post a snap shot of the exaft point when hamilton squeezed russel please. That will end the discussion. I have seen snap shot of them approaching the corner side by side. But not in the corner itself. Let's see when the forcing off starts.

[ringo]

This is the rule for outside:

In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner. The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track.

Even here is ‘among the various factors when exercising their discretion’.

If the behavior of the overtaken car isn’t safe they will penalize even if they were ahead. In my humblest opinion they would have penalized here if it wasn’t among teammates.

Edit: also note that the car being overtaken needs to stay within the track limits.

Disagree. Not sure what would be penalized. Please share the screenshots when the forcing off starts.

[chrisc90]

Oddly enough, he was doing the same speed as the previous lap. He lifted marginally sooner and braked at the same time. Problem was, IMHO, the car was a dog to drive that lap as the tyres were gone completely.

Lap 16 if you want to check the telemetry.

[chrisc90]

When did Lewis leave the track? What are you referring to? Did you see all 4 wheels off.

Lewis had all 4 tyres off the track.

[TFSA]

That is what the guidelines say, but you need to take into account that Lewis left the track in his defensive move. Being ahead "from the apex" is quite easy if you can just extend the track on exit and push the other guy off. It's similar to Brazil 2021, which I feel was one of the incidents which brought about the 2022 guidelines clarification. If he stays on track he is entitled to put the squeeze on.

True. That's a fair point. But you could also argue that if Russell had backed out in time, he wouldn't have gone off the track either - and since they're both off the track.... maybe even could have overtaken Lewis. It's a tricky one.

Was there contact? Didn't look like it to me (George suddenly moved left, but looked like an intentional dodge to me). That could have been a differentiator.

[Mogster]

When did Lewis leave the track? What are you referring to? Did you see all 4 wheels off.

Lewis had all 4 tyres off the track.

https://i.ibb.co/f2GL8m2/Screenshot-fro ... -56-14.png

George understeering like crazy…

[Cs98]

That is what the guidelines say, but you need to take into account that Lewis left the track in his defensive move. Being ahead "from the apex" is quite easy if you can just extend the track on exit and push the other guy off. It's similar to Brazil 2021, which I feel was one of the incidents which brought about the 2022 guidelines clarification. If he stays on track he is entitled to put the squeeze on.

True. That's a fair point. But you could also argue that if Russell had backed out in time, he wouldn't have gone off the track either - and since they're both off the track.... maybe even could have overtaken Lewis. It's a tricky one.

Was there contact? Didn't look like it to me (George suddenly moved left, but looked like an intentional dodge to me). That could have been a differentiator.

George is off the track because he is being forced there. The debate here is whether it's legal or not to force him off the track. I think not since Lewis himself goes off the track and is thus not in control of his car when making his defensive move. The "from the apex" argument is a legitimate one when the defending car is in control, not when they're just bombing up the inside with no way of making the corner.

[TFSA]

George is off the track because he is being forced there. The debate here is whether it's legal or not to force him off the track. I think not since Lewis himself goes off the track and is thus not in control of his car when making his defensive move. The "from the apex" argument is a legitimate one when the defending car is in control, not when they're just bombing up the inside with no way of making the corner.

Well the stewards obviously disagree. Whether it's because they're teammates is a topic for debate, but the stewards in general wasn't f*cking around this weekend if you ask me.

[Just_a_fan]

When did Lewis leave the track? What are you referring to? Did you see all 4 wheels off.

Lewis had all 4 tyres off the track.

https://i.ibb.co/f2GL8m2/Screenshot-fro ... -56-14.png

And precedent allows that.

Just as Russell didn't get a penalty for causing Leclerc to go off track.

[f1316]

Very very dull race but what else is new. The irony is, even if something had happened to Max - and even with Perez being AWOL - it would *still* have been a dull race, as Mclaren were a clear step ahead of Ferrari and Mercedes here. Really shows how going all in on the Red Bull philosophy and architecture has been worthwhile for them and how the other ‘big teams’ reluctance/stubbornness really cost them (we know this but it was yet another clear example).

McLaren’s meteoric rise when making this shift gives more optimism for me for next year than many other say - ie that it’s over for competition until 2026 - as I think Ferrari and Mercedes have the resources to make such a step for next year (and are coming from less far back than Mclaren were) but I’m an optimist but nature! Roll in next year anyway.