Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[MtthsMlw]

so Marko said Ferrari turned up the PU in Friday...

Considering his previous statements, that means they haven't turned it up

i didn't want to reply before qualy ends coz it really seems that Ferrari not so mighty since this TD was put into in Mexico so i do think that Ferrari was benefiting from that fuel flow grey area which FIA restricted.

It was handed to the teams in Austin and Ferrari was already off the single lap pace in Mexico.
Will wait for what Merc and RB calculate now.

[siskue2005]

Considering his previous statements, that means they haven't turned it up

i didn't want to reply before qualy ends coz it really seems that Ferrari not so mighty since this TD was put into in Mexico so i do think that Ferrari was benefiting from that fuel flow grey area which FIA restricted.

It was handed to the teams in Austin and Ferrari was already off the single lap pace in Mexico.
Will wait for what Merc and RB calculate now.

Before the TD

Mexico fastest sector times

Two tenths faster in the sector with straights

Singapore fastest sector times

Two tenths faster in the sector with straights

Sochi fastest sector times

5 tenths faster in the sector with straights

After the TD

Brazil fastest sector times

Only fractionally faster in sectors with straights and slower in high downforce sctors

USA fastest sector times

Slower in sector with straights

Just putting it here, it defently seems that they have lost a huge time in sectors with straights after the TD

[LM10]

Only ICE was changed to a fresh one on Leclerc’s PU btw. Would we see a power deficit on worn out parts other than ICE?

[Polite]

i didn't want to reply before qualy ends coz it really seems that Ferrari not so mighty since this TD was put into in Mexico so i do think that Ferrari was benefiting from that fuel flow grey area which FIA restricted.

It was handed to the teams in Austin and Ferrari was already off the single lap pace in Mexico.
Will wait for what Merc and RB calculate now.

Before the TD

Mexico fastest sector times
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/505 ... 06ebb2.jpg
Two tenths faster in the sector with straights

Singapore fastest sector times
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/395 ... 803833.jpg
Two tenths faster in the sector with straights

Sochi fastest sector times
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/036 ... 9e586f.jpg
5 tenths faster in the sector with straights

After the TD

Brazil fastest sector times
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/932 ... 5a1fc9.jpg
Only fractionally faster in sectors with straights and slower in high downforce sctors

USA fastest sector times
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/666 ... 0b9951.jpg
Slower in sector with straights

Just putting it here, it defently seems that they have lost a huge time in sectors with straights after the TD

this is explained by the aero upgrade of singapore m8... Ferrari lost a bit of speed from that.
just more drag.
Ferrari is the fastest also after all the Tds so stop complains

[siskue2005]

It was handed to the teams in Austin and Ferrari was already off the single lap pace in Mexico.
Will wait for what Merc and RB calculate now.

Before the TD

Mexico fastest sector times
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/505 ... 06ebb2.jpg
Two tenths faster in the sector with straights

Singapore fastest sector times
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/395 ... 803833.jpg
Two tenths faster in the sector with straights

Sochi fastest sector times
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/036 ... 9e586f.jpg
5 tenths faster in the sector with straights

After the TD

Brazil fastest sector times
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/932 ... 5a1fc9.jpg
Only fractionally faster in sectors with straights and slower in high downforce sctors

USA fastest sector times
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/666 ... 0b9951.jpg
Slower in sector with straights

Just putting it here, it defently seems that they have lost a huge time in sectors with straights after the TD

this is explained by the aero upgrade of singapore m8... Ferrari lost a bit of speed from that.
just more drag.
Ferrari is the fastest also after all the Tds so stop complains

so why were they 2 tenths faster in the straight in singapore gp in qualifying after the aero upgrade in singapore?? BUT they are slower now even with or without singapore update?? and As this is a technical forum could you explain what you are saying with the sector times of all the tracks which i have posted above? Coz i can see a clear difference in sector times before and after the TD, i dont see them clearly faster in those sectors before and after the TD.

Sector times shows all three manufacturers are about equal in sector 3 , Mercedes is slower than Honda & Ferrari in sector 1 by 0.2 tenth In Sochi Ferrari had an advantage of 0.6 in the straights

[siskue2005]

Only ICE was changed to a fresh one on Leclerc’s PU btw. Would we see a power deficit on worn out parts other than ICE?

And yet they were so fast (nearly 6 tenths in sector 1 alone and 4 tenths in sector 3) in Belgium with their old and worn out spec 2 engine!

[MarcJ]

I recently learned (and maybe it has already been discussed in this thread and I missed it) that Ferrari uses a special synthetic liquid in their cooling systems (whereas all the other teams use water).

I think I read graphene, but someone with further knowledge is more than welcome to chime in.

Yeah, it seems that Ferrari is using a new coolant based from the Australian FlexeGRAPH company. It`s based on using carbon structures called graphene - the toughest material made by human up to date. As a secondary benefit due to their special tubular structure, graphene a has much higher heat/thermal capacity hence a much better heat transfer. The said that: "FlexeGRAPH has developed nano-fluids with graphene as the active ingredient. FlexeGRAPH nano-fluids feature suspended graphene particles that conduct heat 10,000X better than water. This provides a significant improvement in thermal conductivity over standard liquid coolants and has applications across many industries., according to their site: https://flexegraph.com/

They also say their new coolant allows up to 60% improved heat exchange compared with market-leading materials.

That would explain why Ferrari uses oil as a coolant, for graphene is hydrophobic (it wouldn't disperse in water).

The normal FlexeGRAPH is water based with 5 micron graphene powder, there's two providers of the powder First Graphene in Western Australia and ArcherX in Sydney,Australia who have created the worlds first room temperature qu-bit for Quantum Computing using graphene, just for information to show graphene RnD is producing real use cases.

The enhanced heat transfer improvement works equally well in the liquid air heat exchanger.

[sosic2121]

All of this is easily explainable with different DF levels.
Ferrari runs higher DF level wnigs more often than let's say Mercedes, since their car produces less DF to begin with.

When setup go to extreme, and everyone takes off as much DF as they can(Monza), or put everything on (Singapore) then Ferrari is faster on the straights but slower in the corners.

Ferrari is still quicker than Mercedes in Brazil, despite twisty S2.

But, IMO you are asking the wrong question.
You should be asking what happens with Ferrari's pace during the race!?
Why was Ferrari as fast as Mercedes only in Russia and Bahrain!?
From Monza we know it's not because they had to turn the engine down.

Another hint. How many laps do you think Hamilton could have done on H tires in Mexico while doing competitive times? Especially considering he was pushing very hard for the first 10 laps!?
Leclerc lost his H tires after 20 laps with much lighter car...

[siskue2005]

All of this is easily explainable with different DF levels.
Ferrari runs higher DF level wnigs more often than let's say Mercedes, since their car produces less DF to begin with.

When setup go to extreme, and everyone takes off as much DF as they can(Monza), or put everything on (Singapore) then Ferrari is faster on the straights but slower in the corners.

No, not correct; look at the image below of sector times from Q3 at singapore

The fastest first sector is by a ferrari (mostly straights, even though it is smaller straights)

The faster second sector is by a ferrari again, which is still high downforce twisty sections!

And even in the slower twisty sections in at Sector 3, the ferrari is just +0.05 seconds off the mercs!

Ferrari is still quicker than Mercedes in Brazil, despite twisty S2.

The twisty s2 section at Brazil they were slowest of the top 3 teams

But, IMO you are asking the wrong question.
You should be asking what happens with Ferrari's pace during the race!?
Why was Ferrari as fast as Mercedes only in Russia and Bahrain!?
From Monza we know it's not because they had to turn the engine down.

Yes, good questions.

Another hint. How many laps do you think Hamilton could have done on H tires in Mexico while doing competitive times? Especially considering he was pushing very hard for the first 10 laps!?
Leclerc lost his H tires after 20 laps with much lighter car...

In simple terms, that shows that Ferrari donot have enough downforce compared to mercedes

[Tzk]

Yep. If you compare Vettel to Ham in Singapore you notice that Vet is a tenth faster in S1 and S2 and 2/10 slower in S3. I'd conclude that either the Ferrari had a bit less DF or that the suspension geometry on the ferrari makes them suffer a bit in very tight corners. We should also not forget that DF may be different on the cars at different speeds, depending on win flex and other trickery the teams are using.

In Brazil (again Vet vs. Ham) it seems like Merc use a bit more DF which gives them an extra tenth in S1, but they gain it again on S2 because Ferrari hasn't enough DF to be equally fast there. S3 is equal.

[sosic2121]

All of this is easily explainable with different DF levels.
Ferrari runs higher DF level wnigs more often than let's say Mercedes, since their car produces less DF to begin with.

When setup go to extreme, and everyone takes off as much DF as they can(Monza), or put everything on (Singapore) then Ferrari is faster on the straights but slower in the corners.

No, not correct; look at the image below of sector times from Q3 at singapore
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/395 ... 803833.jpg
The fastest first sector is by a ferrari (mostly straights, even though it is smaller straights)

The faster second sector is by a ferrari again, which is still high downforce twisty sections!

And even in the slower twisty sections in at Sector 3, the ferrari is just +0.05 seconds off the mercs!

Ferrari is still quicker than Mercedes in Brazil, despite twisty S2.

https://serving.photos.photobox.com/932 ... 5a1fc9.jpg
The twisty s2 section at Brazil they were slowest of the top 3 teams

But, IMO you are asking the wrong question.
You should be asking what happens with Ferrari's pace during the race!?
Why was Ferrari as fast as Mercedes only in Russia and Bahrain!?
From Monza we know it's not because they had to turn the engine down.

Yes, good questions.

Another hint. How many laps do you think Hamilton could have done on H tires in Mexico while doing competitive times? Especially considering he was pushing very hard for the first 10 laps!?
Leclerc lost his H tires after 20 laps with much lighter car...

In simple terms, that shows that Ferrari donot have enough downforce compared to mercedes

@mods
I know this discussion doesn't belong here, and I'm responding only because siskue made his points in respectful way. Maybe you should open new thread about supposed Ferrari power advantage and move all these comments there

I believe Singapore was a bit of an outlier since it is a very bumpy track, and as such didn't suit Mercedes. During preseason testing there were comments about how bouncy their car looked.

On the other hand, Ferrari is lacking DF whole season. They were bad in Monaco and Hungary. Even in Spain they AFAIK they ran max DF setup.

In a way, Ferrari and Mercedes switched their 2017 philosophies.
Remember Spa 2017?
Then Ferrari had quicker race car, but could not put it on pole. Compared to 2019, in 2017 it was much harder to follow other cars which benefited Mercedes' philosophy then.

[bluechris]

Guys you miss a fundamental thing here, the season is finished many races ago.
Ferrari and Mercedes already testing things for 2020. Ferrari especially with the start of season fiasco with their inability to have downforce trying hard to mitigate this. We see in all the last races crazy test wings and constant changes in the front wing. They need to be on top of their design and decide now the way they will have the 2020 design. It will be like this year? Or a bit more downforce?
Its a hard equation that yet doesn't have the answer. The 2020 practise in Spain will not be enough.
As matter RB, they are known for their good aero department and now with the last changes they found something and the car flies, count also that all the season was engine updates and testing so eventually Honda found something i suppose.

All this speculation without proofs here make me smile, even though fia is not stupid guys and none can cheat for so much time without been cought and i say this because in my mind Ferrari is the same and they just try to get over their aero and suspension problems.

[w1Y]

Ferrari starting stronger on Friday in regards to PU could be that they then add downforce over the weekend which eats into their qualy advantage but benefits them for the race. Could be that they miscalculated it this weekend and Honda and merc had more in reserve than they expected.

Or maybe they turned engines up on friday to deflect the PR issue around losing their advantage hoping that it would mask it notably being not there on saturday.

[hape]

Ferrari starting stronger on Friday in regards to PU could be that they then add downforce over the weekend which eats into their qualy advantage but benefits them for the race. Could be that they miscalculated it this weekend and Honda and merc had more in reserve than they expected.

Agreed, in the end only one thing counts:
The balance between qualifying single lap time optimized on Saturday and the fastest car over the race distance come Sunday. And that with the car being in parque fermé after qualifying.
Friday we saw the Ferrari not good over race distance, Vettel told yesterday after qualifying they tweaked the car a bit more for the race distance.
Compare Friday sector times and speed with Saturday and it seems they added DF which should help them preserve the tyres in the race.

[LM10]

Only ICE was changed to a fresh one on Leclerc’s PU btw. Would we see a power deficit on worn out parts other than ICE?

And yet they were so fast (nearly 6 tenths in sector 1 alone and 4 tenths in sector 3) in Belgium with their old and worn out spec 2 engine!
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/643 ... 75ef24.jpg

Funny that you're not mentioning S2 where downforce is required and the Ferraris clearly were slower than the Mercedes. In Singapore Ferrari got upgrades which gave them more downforce and in Austin and Brazil they went even further and used highest possible downforce level on their rear wing. It makes absolutely no sense just comparing fast sectors without taking downforce sectors into consideration.
Mercedes has been wiping the floor with Ferrari downforce wise over the majority of the season. Now, what we see is a Ferrari which has been as fast as Mercedes in twisty S2 in Austin and even faster (Leclerc) than Mercedes in twisty S2 in Brazil. This in addition to still being fastest on the straights even though with such a parachute of a rear wing. I don't need to explain that there is no other part producing more drag than the rear wing, right?