2016 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim, 29-31 July

[TAG]

Shouldn't we open a thread with "The Rosberg manoeuvre of the week" to keep the race threads a bit clean?

Or maybe a poll?

While you're at it, maybe a http://www.HasRosbergPushedAnyoneWideAt ... yToday.com

[Phil]

Sad thing is, there isnt much else to discuss about the Hockenheim race...

Although to be honest, i found it far from boring. I thought the battle for 2nd to 4th was great and was on the whole race, as was the progress of the McLarens.

[WaikeCU]

Hulkenberg seems to have had a great race in Hockenheim. I haven't noticed how his race went.

[komninosm]

Thanks guys for the responses.
LOL at stopwatch button problems.
I didn't download this race (watched it live on OTEsport HD) so I can't be bothered to check previous laps to see how far before normal Max twithed/turned. Oh well, I'm no Rosberg fan anyway, where are they anway? They should be posting overlapped pic comparisons of this thing themselves and not just complaining.

[Juzh]

Hulkenberg seems to have had a great race in Hockenheim. I haven't noticed how his race went.

He was holding station behind bottas at around 2-4s gap for most of the race, then undercut him at the 2nd pitstop but couldn't pull away. Then hulk pitted for the 3rd time pretty early to prevent bottas undercut (he was around 1s back at the time), but williams went with a 2 stop and hulk caught and overtook bottas whose tires were dead at the end.
Overall FI and williams were almost neck and neck at hockenheim. Perhaps williams had just a tiny bit more. We're talking 1/10s or even less.

[nevill3]

So what exactly is the rule?

.....

OK it seems you guys - and many others actually - are a bit unsure of how an overtake is judged. I have something for you that will make things 100% clear. After you read this you will have no problems judging overtakes. You will be instant experts. You know what? Take this as a sort of overtaking Bible. Read it, know it, live it, preach it.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08 ... of-racing/

Thank you for the link, a very informed and intelligent piece, more of these articles need to be read and understood by some of the posters in the various race threads.

The Rosberg incident this time was not as harsh as the last time with Hamilton because he was clearly maintaining a straight line due to being on the limits of adhesion and if he turned sooner then he would have locked up or spun. This I think was a borderline "Dive Bomb" not as late as some but the same result if he had tried to turn. Nico's reasoning afterwards that he had to turn late to avoid locking up shows that it was either a lack of judgement or race-craft on his part or a deliberate attempt to frighten his opponent off the track. He definitely lingered on the apex to prevent Max front performing the switch back when he realised that Nico had passed him, but in lingering he also left no room for Max to go inside or outside effectively blocking the entire corner.

A borderline decision I think but with his recent history maybe the stewards felt he was being too aggressive and crowded out Max which is against the rules.

[Edax]

Comparing Riccis move to Ros as a defense for Ros doesn't work.

<snip>

With Ros, there are questions all over the shop. He's on "the limit", yet calm as a summer breeze . Hes concerned about making the corner, but doesn't turn even one degree of steering. His brakes are flat to the floor, yet hes slowing down nice and steady without even the hint of a locked wheel. He's so out of control of the car. unable to control it. but "luckily" he gets enough grip to turn at the exact moment when hes blocked off Verstappen. It was a blatant blocking attempt.
<snip>
Ros on the other hand. You cant see where he was fighting the car to make the corner. You cant see where his braking is on the limit. You cant see where even after the squeeze, he left any space for the other car to rejoin the track. You cant see where he showed that he didn't have the intention of doing exactly what he did
.

I think your analysis is correct and Rosberg was not near the limit. For us that is a guess, but the stewards will likely have checked it before handing out the penalty. There is a nice article, be it somewhat old, on what is going on inside the stewards office.

http://en.espn.co.uk/fia/motorsport/story/97528.html

It would be good if they released some of the information they use to base their descisions. My guess is that their judging would look a lot less erratic if we had the same info.

[rayden]

Vestappen didn't 'start to turn early' he was trying to block Rosbergs move as he saw it happening in his mirrors. He did the same with Kimi, that is his style. He said this in an interview afterwards,

Whether that is right or not is another matter.

[Shakeman]

The Rosberg incident this time was not as harsh as the last time with Hamilton because he was clearly maintaining a straight line due to being on the limits of adhesion and if he turned sooner then he would have locked up or spun.

Where is your evidence for this?

A driver doesn't know where the absolute limit of adhesion is if they did we'd never see tyre smoke under braking. If this was an honest mistake by Rosberg there would've have been tyre smoke as Rosberg found the limit and backed off and ran deep. There was no smoke not even for a fraction of a second the car was under perfect control and it was a cynical act which the stewards could easily see.

[Jolle]

The Rosberg incident this time was not as harsh as the last time with Hamilton because he was clearly maintaining a straight line due to being on the limits of adhesion and if he turned sooner then he would have locked up or spun.

Where is your evidence for this?

A driver doesn't know where the absolute limit of adhesion is if they did we'd never see tyre smoke under braking. If this was an honest mistake by Rosberg there would've have been tyre smoke as Rosberg found the limit and backed off and ran deep. There was no smoke not even for a fraction of a second the car was under perfect control and it was a cynical act which the stewards could easily see.

It really doesn't matter. If it was on purpose or by accident or whatever. Pushing someone off track is the offence, the reason why is not important

[djos]

The Rosberg incident this time was not as harsh as the last time with Hamilton because he was clearly maintaining a straight line due to being on the limits of adhesion and if he turned sooner then he would have locked up or spun.

Where is your evidence for this?

A driver doesn't know where the absolute limit of adhesion is if they did we'd never see tyre smoke under braking. If this was an honest mistake by Rosberg there would've have been tyre smoke as Rosberg found the limit and backed off and ran deep. There was no smoke not even for a fraction of a second the car was under perfect control and it was a cynical act which the stewards could easily see.

It really doesn't matter. If it was on purpose or by accident or whatever. Pushing someone off track is the offence, the reason why is not important

Exactly, Britney didn't even try to make the apex, luckily max has great situational awareness and took avoiding action.

[nevill3]

The Rosberg incident this time was not as harsh as the last time with Hamilton because he was clearly maintaining a straight line due to being on the limits of adhesion and if he turned sooner then he would have locked up or spun.

Where is your evidence for this?

A driver doesn't know where the absolute limit of adhesion is if they did we'd never see tyre smoke under braking. If there would've have been tyre smoke as Rosberg found the limit and backed off and ran deep. There was no smoke not even for a fraction of a second the car was under perfect control and it was a cynical act which the stewards could easily see.

Nico's interview in the paddock after the race.. please do not selectively quote parts of other peoples posts. Poor journalists take incomplete quotes and blow them up out of all proportion to sensationalise and invoke a reaction.

this was an honest mistake by Rosberg

[Shakeman]

Nico's interview in the paddock after the race..

Sounds legit.

[dans79]

Nico's interview in the paddock after the race..

You can't be serious.....


At the absolute best Nico is biased, at worst he is strait up lying!

[Phil]

Nico's interview in the paddock after the race.. please do not selectively quote parts of other peoples posts. Poor journalists take incomplete quotes and blow them up out of all proportion to sensationalise and invoke a reaction.

Of course he would say so. We wouldn't want him to admit to running a fellow driver off the track on purpose now, especially not after already receiving a penalty for it, twice!

On a more serious note though, and as others have pointed out, he wasn't at the limit or it would have looked quite different, e.g. tires smoking, a lockup, a puff of smoke. Rosbergs maneuver looked like a driver very much in control pulling off a calculated move; e.g judging his braking perfectly and also choosing his turn-in-point and executing it perfectly.

A move that is dangerous. In Hamilton's case in Austria, he [Hamilton] was slightly ahead, so he effectively turned into his blindspot and hit Nico. In Hockenheim, Verstappen was crucially alongside to see what Rosberg was doing, where his steering wheel and wheels were pointed to know that he was being run off the track. If Verstappen had been further ahead, it would have likely resulted in the same collision as in Spielberg because a driver wouldn't (shouldn't) have to assume the other driver is blocking the corner.

Also, as for Verstappen moving in the braking zone; I genuinely believe Max didn't anticipate Rosberg going for it, or else he would have covered the inside line earlier. When he noticed that Rosberg was going for it, perhaps, he wanted to close the door, but from his rear-mirrors, it must have been clear that Rosberg was coming with at a high speed and at that point was already committed. Had Max not avoided by opening his steering wheel lock, it would have surely ended up with a collision right there. I see no malicious intent there, even if I don't agree with Max's defensive driving in Hungary for example.