Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

[vyselegend]

Data weren't stolen since Stepney possessed them legally and Mclaren didn't stole them from Stepney or asked him to give them or sell them. This is internal Ferrari leak problem and nothing more.

Manchild, you can't say things like that. "Data weren't stolen since Stepney possessed them legally". My work consist globaly in creating and managing the informatic park of a private school. I may legally possess the right to dispose of every electronical components inside the school, but if I were to bring a server home and give the student's database to another school, it would be a robbery wouldn't it.

I see that your point was to free Mc Laren from the blame (as would the "other school" of my exemple be innocent as long as they refuse the illegal content-as modbaraban stressed-) but in the end Ferrari is right in their claim that they've been stolen. I share your point that they aren't very well placed to complain about other cheating, and Todt is really a horrible hypocrit when he laments about "damaging the image of F1".
Still, denying Ferrari's legitimity in defending themselves in this case is like denying a victim of burglary the right to sue the thieves if he has judicial antecedents...
Law doesn't work like that and the system protects everyone against crime... Even former criminals!

[manchild]

I was trying to define what espionage is and what isn't and this affair isn't.

I agree with you regarding managing data - if Stepney really did it and knew he wasn't supposed bring data out to show them around that doesn't mean that Mike or whole Mclaren is to be blamed for taking a look at something Stepney showed them.

If there wasn't official notice about missing or stolen data than how could have anyone from Mclaren be sure that Stepney isn't perhaps giving them something faked in order to confuse them or that he isn't acting under instructions from Ferrari pretending to be giving away secrets?

The moment Ferrari announced missing data Mclaren is cooperating with FIA and police. What else is there?

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*SR, yes, I'm spending too much time at the PC again

[FLC]

These people you are talking about are not stupid. They know damn well where they are working and what their obligations are. I wouldn't be surprised if they could even tell the rules, both sporting and technical, by heart. Even if we assumed Ferrari were nasty and gave Coughlan the dossier in order to fail him and put Mclaren in disrupt, all they had to do was to pick up the phone and make 1 or 2 calls. That would have ended their misery in exactly 5 minutes. But someone over there chose consciously to over look the whole thing, and this is the price you have to pay when you hide the truth. There was contradiction in the very first press release they gave, but since it's not Ferrari on the line, words are not cross examined by some. It would be inconvenient.

I hope that that fake story by the Italian journalist is not what you have to hold on to. He made it all up, yes. all of it!!! Gone are the "evidence". Mclaren are saved now, the FIA has canceled the hearing.
I don't know in what world you're living but a sentence and a half made up from an e-mail no one other than the FIA, Mclaren and Ferrari are supposed to even know about are not exactly evidence. Far, far from it. If Mclaren were stupid enough to be put in hot water for taking it as granted, which I'm sure they didn't, they deserve the burnings.
But if it makes you feel good, yes, he made it alllllll up, that stupid Italian!!!

Manchild, I seriously recommend you do a small research on business ethics and how big modern companies nowadays are working to implement codes and sets of rules that would deal with these kind of incidents.
Just to give you an idea, I know that 2 engineers at one of Intel's factories here did a remarkable project and still were fired because the management found out that they didn't wait for some software they used to arrive, after it was already bought by the factory, and used a copy they somehow got their hands on. I'm sure most of us wouldn't see any wrong in doing so, and they ultimately did it in favor of the factory as it took less time, but Still they were fired.

[manchild]

I don't think that business ethic is applicable here. F1 teams are rivals. Acquiring information about their rivals is part of them game. You can frequently see team members on the pit wall using binoculars to check refueling of their rivals. Isn't that espionage too?

[FLC]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Every sector is supposed to have its own putative set of rules and codes. Diamond merchants wont necessarily have the same exact rules and codes as in F1 for that matter, in relation to their business rivals. In some enviorments what Williams and Red-Bull have done, in copying Mclaren's bridge wing, would be considered unethical, but not in F1.
All teams practice what you might refer to as espionage. They record certain sounds and take pictures of the cars and so forth, but there are red lines. I'm sure any team on the grid would consider a situation where a rival team has its hands on a 780 pages dossier of its car as over that red line, and be the reason of how it got it as it may.

[RacingManiac]

just a question , what is better? Ferrari's way "catch me if brake FIA regulations" or Mc Laren's way "prove that i am quilty " .Remember also Bar in 2004 , ( a team with not strong policy ) founded quilty for the extra tank (underweight car) . Bar was convicted mainly not because there was enough proof that the car was underweight BUT because it could do so . Ferrari used movable aero devices but FIA could not prove it and as regards Mc Laren maybe you are right , it did not steal nothing , simply the good fellow Stepney felt that he should help the good Mc Laren win the championship and defeat the bad Ferrari . No it was NOT money the reason he did it .........or maybe it was money ....... who can offer so much money ?????Mc Laren maybe?

The Ferrari way is the way of everyone in F1....I maintain my stance that everyone is in the business to break the rule, that is why the rules are there. The degree and ability in which a team can push the boundary determines the success of any team in any form of competition. FIA is responsible to catch anyone breaking the rule, and based on their own set of standard to govern the rule(in this case the static test on the floor), they cannot declare that a team has indeed broken their own rule, and therefore it is completely legal for them to operate in that rule set. Now FIA was notified as to what the teams are doing to overcome their static testing standard(for which originally to them was an oversight), they rectified the rule and the testing, and subsequently removed such a setup from being used.

In BAR's case the rule was not changed before or after they were caught, it was as it always is. They got caught and penalised. Ferrari/BMW's floor was tested, and declare legal at every race it was used, and as such they were never in doubt of their actual rule compliance in the wording of the rule, which is the sole compliance any team has to provide.

"Spirit of the rule", is an nonesense uttered by the losers...

[mikep99]

There are so many hypocritical posts here that it makes me laughs...

I know... it amazes me how people can't see how Ferrari's own reliability problems have been caused by McLaren. I think Ferrari should sue them for making them have to drive their cars too fast and therefore causing more mechanical failures. It's totally not fair.



Rob W

Rob, like I said some people make me laugh

http://www.thepocket.com/wavs/moneypit3.wav

And thats not with you, its at you mateeeeeeeeeeeeee

[DaveKillens]

It's obvious that Todt intends to push this issue as far as he can, now adding the Italian and British courts to the process. Since he displays little faith in the FIA's handling of the affair, could this not be an interpretation of bringing the sport into disrepute? Personally, I will accept the decision and move on. But not Todt, he really intends to get his pound of flesh from Ron Dennis.
As far as this bit of irresponsible and damaging article by Pino Allievi, the timing and nature of it asks more questions than it answers. It clearly intends to drive Alonso further away from his team, and it makes it appear that many in McLaren were aware of Ferrari's secrets (as come by Stepney). There's a name for this, and it's called "smear campaign."

[Rob W]

It's obvious that Todt intends to push this issue as far as he can, now adding the Italian and British courts to the process....

I agree. Also, there are things in this case which still stand out to me as being important and still unanswered:

- McLaren would have submitted their computer and ISP records to the FIA during the first investigation. New evidence surrounding this area surely must be treated with a little suspicion. Ferrari have never had access to this info (for obvious reasons) so comments made by them on the particular area of messages/emails/data being sent/swapped are purely guesswork. (this doesn't discount the possibility that McLaren have computer experts who could obscure data/info - but even this would be detectable)

- Other areas such a phone records etc are so easy to recover I cannot fathom how McLaren would be able to hide the level of internal communication which Coulghan would need to make use of the info he had.

- Stepney, for someone who is supposed to have done so much wrong, has been decidedly vocal in his claims of innocence. Any competent lawyer would have told him to keep quiet if there was any solid evidence on him with regards to the sending of info or the white powder. His media comments say to me that he has a defense and some of Ferrari's claims about him are either false (or unprovable). This means that either Ferrari are merely trying to stop him from getting employed by discrediting him or there are other people within Ferrari who helped Stepney (this would confirm some of his statements about people in the team not being happy).

- Both the Italian and British media have little credibility. Anything said so far should be regarded as just headline-grabbing guesses.

- The nature of the public comments said by Todt, if used in most civil court cases, would earn him a contempt charge and possibly a mistrial. His public comments don't help his cause at all and his lawyer would have told him this. This says to me he is more interested in simply making McLaren look bad publicly - possibly in anticipation of the court case being ruled in McLaren's favour. (where there's enough smoke their has to be fire right?)

Rob W

[bar555]

Give me a good reason why Stepney delivered all this technical documents about Ferrari to Coughlan. Was money the reason ? I can not think other reason . If it was indeed money , another question comes forward . Where did Coughlan find so much money ? logically Mc Laren offered the money . Who runs Mc Laren's economics ? So Ron Dennis may know more things than he pretends to know .

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, bar555, the idea is that Stepney and Coughlan wanted to offer their services to Honda, or so it's been said to us.

As FIA has offered an amnesty to De La Rosa, Alonso AND Hamilton if they "confess" ("It is the duty of all those involved in the sport to ensure the fairness and legitimacy of the FIA Formula One World Championship"), this means FIA doesn't have as many proofs as they wish, AND they are not buying Manchild's theory on copyright.

NOTE:I quote: "Who are these men to say that they will 'accept responsibility for this'? They already have the responsibility..."

Anyway, it's my guess that McLaren will be punished, severely or effectively I don't know, "pour encourager les autres". You don't move from Court of Appeals to Sports Council ("The FIA President’s referral of the matter to the International Court of Appeal has been withdrawn") if they were merely to change the ruling. I don't see McLaren enjoying fully this year WCC.

The photo of the year: Dennis broke into tears after Monza's GP


NOTE: "to encourage the others", as Voltaire said in "Candide". Voltaire referred to Admiral John Byng, who was executed in the 1700's "for failing to do his utmost", because a naval lieutenant had been executed a year or so earlier for much the same crime, and the British people and parliament demanded equal justice for equal crime in the Byng case. The example set is widely credited with having contributed mightily to the future performance of the Royal Navy. Did Coughlan "do his utmost"?

[bar555]

How Honda would be helped by this ?? Why Stepney and Coughlan did not reveal tech documents to Honda also ?? Why Stepney would risk his succesful career in a top F1 team , if he did not have a strong motivation (money perhaps?) ?? . Sorry , i make too many questions but it is really difficult to understand some issues. I agree with your opinion that FIA do no have enough proof to convict Mc Laren but that does not mean that they are not .

[Ciro Pabón]

bar555, it has been written (I'm not sure, I wasn't there) that the "Dynamic Duo" offered their services to Honda this year. Of course, they weren't going to show any documents: all the "know-how" went with them, or so it's said. The deal was something like "Honda: we are the top honchos at the most successful teams here, hire us and we'll get you out of your misery". Allegedly, they had the documents ready in preparation for their "career move".

About the successful career, Stepney was "left behind" and offered no promotion when Ferrari "moved his pawns" after Schumacher departed. That's the motive, or so Ferrari implies: he wasn't promoted, so he was sore and wanted to look for his own "promotion". Stepney says it isn't so. That is the subject of a penal trial in Italy and the italian judge has said he believes the case has its merits, so, probably, Stepney will be found guilty of something at that, separate, trial. It's a funny thing for a judge to go public like that. Coughlan's motives are harder to fathom.

I may have not expressed myself well. I think FIA probably has enough proof to punish McLaren. After all, their top designer had the documents and his wife, in heaven's name, copied them... what else do you want? A post in Wikipedia with Dennis's IP adress?

All I'm saying is that they don't have as much proof as they wish, if McLaren is going to be "crucified", which means from losing the WCC to being expelled from F1. You cannot bar a team from competing just because they hired a moron that has no access to a photocopier at work: you need something else. The italian public is incensed about the article that appeared recently about Alonso and De La Rosa interchanging e-mails on Ferrari settings and tyre performance. Imagine the opposite: Kimi and Massa discussing McLaren settings, while Todt tried to be hired by BMW... Manchild would be asking for the head (or asking for some other body parts! ) of Todt and probably for a ban of any italian team.

If drivers like De La Rosa, Alonso and Hamilton had knowledge about the documents, this means the team was responsible, not just a "rogue employee". This surely would mean that Dennis was implied OR that he is is running a team without knowing anything about what is going on, which given Dennis obsession with detail is highly improbable. I assume that the "rogue employee theory" is behind the earlier lenient punishment given to McLaren at the first ruling on this matter, unless Dennis has some "ace up the sleeve" that prevented a harsher punishment.

To my knowledge, it's the first time FIA offers a "witness program" in public: I don't know if they do it as a way to cut short the rumours in the italian press about Alonso and De La Rosa interchanging e-mails on Ferrari's settings, or if they really think something is going to surface before next Thursday, when the new ruling will be made public.

Anyway, that's just what I`ve read from sunny South America. The truth is, probably, more amazing that anything we can speculate about in this forum. Just imagine what Stepney's feelings had to be to try to sabotage their car, WHILE he was plotting to betray the team (if that's turn out to be true... which I doubt: I've read less hard to believe fantasy novels).

Actually, I hate this subject and have tried to write as little as I can about it, always using "would", "could" and "allegedly" as adverbs and limiting my natural sarcasm as much as nature allows me. This is, truly, a sad business, and, as far as I know, Ferrari has restrained as much as they can. I observe Schumacher disappeared from the public eye, something he must find hard to do... he has the modesty of a Paris Hilton or a Dennis Rodman, if you ask me.

[wunderkind]

How Honda would be helped by this ?? Why Stepney and Coughlan did not reveal tech documents to Honda also ?? Why Stepney would risk his succesful career in a top F1 team , if he did not have a strong motivation (money perhaps?) ?? . Sorry , i make too many questions but it is really difficult to understand some issues. I agree with your opinion that FIA do no have enough proof to convict Mc Laren but that does not mean that they are not .

Stepney was royally peeved when Jean Todt overlooked him and promoted Aldo Costa and Mario Almondo to take over Ross Brawn's responsibilities. Stepney knew his career would progress no further at Ferrari and had one foot out the door by the start of the 2007 season.

There was no reason for Stepney to reveal the dossier to Honda as he hadn't been hired at that time. He and Mike Coughlan wanted to be considered for the roles of Chief Designer and Technical Director at BAR Honda. BAR Honda MD Nick Fry said subsequently that the two would not be considered.

Having followed Formula 1 for over 20 years. I have to say Nigel Stepney never acquired the reputation of being a designer. He always had someone above him whom he reported to such as Ross Brawn, Pat Symonds, and Joan Villadelprat at Benetton. He was always known as a tough and effective taskmaster managing the staff in the preparation of the cars at the factory and the pit crew on race weekends. I really dont know who good he is with a pen in his hand.

But Stepney and Coughlan would have made a formidable engineering team together. They absolutely complement one another. Coughlan knows the MP4/22 inside out and is known to be a capable all-round designer who turns concepts into reality. Whereas Stepney has first hand knowledge on the Ferrari F2007 and possesses all years of experience on how to make a F1 car go quick.

It was only natural for Honda to consider the two for the top technical roles at the team.

[Rob W]

If drivers like De La Rosa, Alonso and Hamilton had knowledge about the documents, this means the team was responsible, not just a "rogue employee".

Ciro... read my post from yesterday. This is how people go off on tangents like this. De La Rosa and Alonso did not have knowledge as claimed. The journalist who said so has admitted he made the story up.

Rob W