McLaren MP4-12C

[xpensive]

...
My beloved SLS gets spanked by all and sundry due to its rear traction issues.
Doesnt detract from it being a fine car.
...

A corporate trademark perhaps?

How about our new wager then?

[paipa]

At the end of the video is a little written bit that says McLaren claim the car was poorly and did a 1.28 later on (beating the best time in the video)
[...]
No wonder someone familiar with the car (a McLaren guy) was much quicker than Ben Collins who admitted it was the first time he'd driven the car.

So they could top the 458 by 0.3s on optional tyres after sending their engineers and chief test driver. I thought this was Ferrari's way of letting their "stock" cars get tested by journos/TVs.

Anyway, the 1:14.1 rumor is ridiculous even if they had optimized their whole manufacturing process for that very Top Gear episode, summoned Ayrton Senna from the heavens and put on a set of slicks. You don't believe that, do you?

[Just_a_fan]

Why the excuses?

It seems there is no end of evidence to suggest the 458 is the better car. From the Stig, through to various journos.
My beloved SLS gets spanked by all and sundry due to its rear traction issues.
Doesnt detract from it being a fine car.

The MP4 12 is a fine car, just didnt hit its lofty target. The excuses of tyres etc remind me of the Porsche/Nissan squabble of nurburgring times. If it made such a diffeeence why wasnt it added beforehand? Or is McLarens meticulousness now having to be questioned to back the excuse?

Not excuses, just observations.

All of the reviews I've read have lauded the technical ability of the McLaren and then used the "soul" or "character" card to say the Ferrari is the better car.

It seems that for those buying these things, the choice is "technical brilliance" or "subjective brilliance". But then, it's likely that a lot of the 458s and 12Cs produced will be sat next to each other in owners' garages. These sort of people tend to have more than one of this sort of car. Lots of reviews have said that the McLaren is the better "every day car" but the Ferrari the better "special day" car. I'd bet many will be bought accordingly just as I'd guess that the SLS will be hugely popular in the US where it's "blood and thunder" style fits with their historic preferences ( 1960s Dodge Chargers et al).

If I had to make a choice of all of these things I'd have the McLaren because I prefer it's technology and styling (the 458 is just too "look at me" for my tastes). If you threw me the keys to any of them and said "that's the only car you're driving for the next 12 months" I'd be as happy as a pig in sh*t.

That's how fine the line between good and bad is with these cars IMHO.

[Just_a_fan]

At the end of the video is a little written bit that says McLaren claim the car was poorly and did a 1.28 later on (beating the best time in the video)
[...]
No wonder someone familiar with the car (a McLaren guy) was much quicker than Ben Collins who admitted it was the first time he'd driven the car.

So they could top the 458 by 0.3s on optional tyres after sending their engineers and chief test driver. I thought this was Ferrari's way of letting their "stock" cars get tested by journos/TVs.

Anyway, the 1:14.1 rumor is ridiculous even if they had optimized their whole manufacturing process for that very Top Gear episode, summoned Ayrton Senna from the heavens and put on a set of slicks. You don't believe that, do you?

As I said to JET, these were just observations about the facts available to us. We'd have preferred McLaren to have lent the fixed car on standard tyres to Ben Collins to do the lap time because that would have been fair and no one could then moan. As it is, it looks like they've gone all "marketing message" and forgotten the intelligence of the audience. It does appear that they're playing the "Ferrari game" on this one. Of course, if they've "done a Ferrari" then they've done it better becuase the car was quicker but it still looks very dodgy.

As for the Dunsfold time, I have no idea. I was just pointing out that the track is familiar to the McLaren team because it's "their" track. I presume that the actual time will be on a forthcoming Top Gear show. Until then it's just idle speculation based on a rumour on the part of a dealer presumably keen to get sales through the roof. We know how prone to hyperbole car dealers are...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I dont think mercedes will be winning regularly next year x. Maybe odd one here and there.

Re 12C.

Its is a glorious car. But what are McLaren telling their client base, by not allowing them to switch off the driver aids?
The reason i think Ferrari knicks it, is because its the more organic car, and your arse can just about feel the difference.
Had McLaren removed the mandatory nanny, it may be different... But i doubt it.

Reminds me of the typhoon eurofighter, designed to be unstable for certain benefits, but only at the whim of a computer and not man. Put man in sole control and it becomes unflyable. Could be a similar trait in the 12C relatively speaking of course.

[alelanza]

Surprised/dissapointed to hear about not being able to completely turn off TC. Now, weren't they going to do something similar to Nissan where if the GPS identifies you're in a track then you can disengage it? or did i dream that?

[Just_a_fan]

I dont think mercedes will be winning regularly next year x. Maybe odd one here and there.

Re 12C.

Its is a glorious car. But what are McLaren telling their client base, by not allowing them to switch off the driver aids?
The reason i think Ferrari knicks it, is because its the more organic car, and your arse can just about feel the difference.
Had McLaren removed the mandatory nanny, it may be different... But i doubt it.

Reminds me of the typhoon eurofighter, designed to be unstable for certain benefits, but only at the whim of a computer and not man. Put man in sole control and it becomes unflyable. Could be a similar trait in the 12C relatively speaking of course.

I've never understood the whole "we want to turn off the ESP system" argument from journos. I have an ESP-off switch on both of my road cars. In the last 10 years, how often have I used that switch? Once, just to find out what happened. Never felt the need to do so again on the road. Indeed, on a number of occasions I've been very grateful for the ESP system's quiet vigil e.g. deep puddles on the side of the road at night - these can really pull the car towards the verge but ESP keeps the car straight and true.

My Mk4 Golf has an ESP system that uses the ABS to give TC and "electronic diff locking" (it brakes the spinning wheel). It's damned effective too and allows some serious progress to be made on wet roads where you'd often expect a loss of traction.

The only time you'd want to turn off these systems is on a track - I'm betting that most buyers of -12Cs will never take them on track with a view to drifting them. Likewise the 458.

The Ferrari manettino is a gimmick that derived from a serious use - selecting comfort, sport or "snow" modes for the TC. They've now gone down the "race" and "all off" route too because it keeps the journos happy and gets big marks from them. I wonder how many manettinos get turned further than "sport" on the 458s in the wild.

[Just_a_fan]

Surprised/dissapointed to hear about not being able to completely turn off TC.

Why disappointed? What use is there to turning it off other than killing tyres in a cloud of smoke?

Now, weren't they going to do something similar to Nissan where if the GPS identifies you're in a track then you can disengage it? or did i dream that?

I think that is a general idea put forward by a number of parties.

One thing McLaren did say is that they could go to various circuits and develop a circuit specific handling map so that when you go there the car is set up for the particular aspects of that circuit. Whether they'll ever do that is anyone's guess.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

JAF

You can laud ESP, rightly so. But when McLaren are going for a "drivers" car, why not make it a drivers choice?

[Just_a_fan]

If you turned off the TC you'd just spin up the unloaded wheel and go nowhere - the -12C doesn't have a locking diff. Why? Because they chose to avoid the extra weight and cost of an LSD and use an electronic system instead. And for road users >99% of the time that's the right decision. For 99% of journos it's the wrong decision.

S'funny, but the last car that McLaren produced was often criticised for being too focussed. Perhaps the next one will be somewhere in between...

[Pup]

Surprised/dissapointed to hear about not being able to completely turn off TC. Now, weren't they going to do something similar to Nissan where if the GPS identifies you're in a track then you can disengage it? or did i dream that?

I believe that's how it's supposed to work. Maybe that track wasn't on the list?

[RacingManiac]

Interesting you bring up the MK4 Golf, my MK6 now has the similar system but tuned to give slight yaw control, in VW lingo its the XDS(Cross Differential System), I'd imagine same as EDL but integrated more with ESC programming to provide variable degree of emulation of a actual LSD, it drags itself out of a tight corner on power with surprising effectiveness for a FWD car.......I was also surprised at the the fact that McLaren does not employ an actual physical LSD and left an electronically based system instead....Provided it works ok I guess it doesn't really matter how they do it...a non-mechanical system can also avoid the folly of being affected by road profile and camber when running in a straight line...

With a electronic diff programming being coded into ESC, maybe that is just how to keep the e-diff working, which is why ESC is not switched off completely. Same issue with the new Golf, but TBH I don't think it was that much of an issue as you can still unload the rear end rather easily...Also considering McLaren also uses a controlled version of the Kinetic suspension with adaptive damping, all of them will be constantly working even if the ESC is "off"...Something I think some journo might be failing to consider, seeing 458 also uses semi-active suspension and I am sure that is still working with the ESC being off....and that can still affect balance...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

What about the delicacy of feeling a car letting go and the ability to correct it without interference?

Im not 99% of people and pretty sure most people in the market for a 12C would see it as a negative not being able to switch off the resident partypooper.
Lest we forgot that "people who buy 911's buy this car".

I guess they were looking at less enthusistic 911 owners...

[Just_a_fan]

What about the delicacy of feeling a car letting go and the ability to correct it without interference?

Im not 99% of people and pretty sure most people in the market for a 12C would see it as a negative not being able to switch off the resident partypooper.
Lest we forgot that "people who buy 911's buy this car".

I guess they were looking at less enthusistic 911 owners...

Most people who buy Porsches buy them because they're Porsches, not because they're thrilling drives at 10/10ths. See the popularity of tiptronic gearboxes, bling-big alloys and soft tops for evidence that most aren't bought by the dedicated driving fan. The car buying public are, sadly, not nearly as well educated in the finer points of car ownership/enjoyment as we might be. Look at the fact that something like 80% of BMW 1-series owners think their car is FWD (according to BMW's own research). Sorry, but most cars, even supercars, aren't bought to be driven at 10/10ths (or even 8/10ths) or their capability. They're bought as status symbols or as expressions of aspiration or many other daft reasons etc.

As for, the feeling of the car letting go and then catching it, you're only doing that on a track. Anyone driving sideways on public roads needs their license reviewing. It's fine in magazines where they have people watching the road with radios etc., but for Mr Average it's not clever.

I seriously can't see these cars being regular track-day toys. People with that sort of money have a dedicated track-day car e.g. Caterham 7, Lotus Elise/Exige etc.

The MP4-12C was built to be a brilliantly-effective all-weather supersports car. And if the only thing people don't like about it is that the TC can't be turned off then I reckon McLaren have met their brief pretty bloody well. If journos think that's a good enough reason to say the car's bad then that reflects more on them than the car ISTM.

[Giblet]

I find it quite impressive that a company that has just made it's first production car is competing so tightly with Ferrari. It's they first iteration of their first car. The Mclaren F1 obviously does not count.