Is Vettel overrated? What do you think

[LionKing]

You obviously don't watch the races. The only reason Button beat Hamilton in 2011 was because Hamilton was crashing into Massa Maldonado Kobayashi etc because he was on the limit... win or nothing. And guess what? He never lost any speed, he still got wins, he still got poles. That year was nothing to say Hamilton is not top draw... Infact it shows how good he is! 2011! Not many drivers have a Horrible year like that and still finish equal with team mate, and same wins. That is how magnaminious the talent of Hamilton is.

Anyway.. Hamilton is already one of the greats. Greatest Rookie, Youngest World Champion in Formula 1 years. etc. Best overtaker etc etc.. Lets talk about Vettel.

Is Vettel overrated? I think yes and no.
He is overated as a qualifier. I think Mark is too close to him when all things are equal. His obviously had a mastery of the Blown diffuser last year. He knew the limits of this "artificial" grip more than Mark did.
This year he is not even outqualifying Old man Marky.

He is not overrated in on track battling. In fact the expectation of his on track battling was never high, but the opposite. He is OK. not great but slightly above average. He chickens out of certain passes where there is risk, but otherwise he makes some intelligent overtakes. And yes Monza I classify as an intelligent overtake and not a Ballsy one. He knew the grip his car had, and he knew Alonso will yield.

As a driver in the race? I think he is NOT overrated. Intelligent driver. I think He is almost as smart as Alonso when it comes to strategy. Alonso and Lewis outshines him by faaaaar in TACTICS though... I hope poeple know the difference between strategy and tactics right? Vettel he knows what he has to do to win. The pacing.. the calmness. He knows the limit of the car.

I think that is his strength. Intelligence and knowing what is possible. He is also aggressive - typical of Ze Germans. But he lacks some bark and bite.

So overall I think he is not overrated.

Speed for Speed.. I would take Hamilton over him.
Hamilton is also intelligent, but more in the ways of battle tactics than strategy. I would take Vettel over him for that.
Alonso is a combination of the two..with no weaknesses. I think Alonso is the best. Hamilton only wins if it is a balls to the wall flat out dog fight of a race... Canada... Nurburgring.... etc.

Don't worry I watch races, probably more than you do Probably many more years than you do.

I also remember Hamilton being outdriven by Button at driver tracks like Monaco, Spa, Suzuka last year. He was slow at Suzuka and thought he had a puncture which the team announced he did not...

I smile when Hamilton/Alonso 2007 is considered "Lewis has beaten Alonso" but when Button finished 43 points Lewis has equaled his teammate. Overall, 2010 and 2011 together they were equal, just Button a few more points....

He did not get poles he got just a single one.

Hamilton was crashing into those because of his clumsy moves and that he was racing for 5-8th places, the Massa neighbourhood last year...

When Vettel has the best car, he generally dominates. People complain about him driving into the distance. "It is easy", "He is not exciting", blah blah blah.....Hamilton could not do it at Australia this year despite having such a car and was beaten by both Button and Vettel in pace.

and for ultimate qualifying speed I would take Vettel over Hamilton...

[PlatinumZealot]

So why is Vettel not dominating now? He has the best car. He is not even faster than his teammate this year. At least Hamilton was faster than Button in 2011.

Monaco, Spa,

11th to 6th in Monaco is Very good - espeically after crashing through the field. Who else has crashed THREE TIMES at Monaco and made it to the line, in the points? Brilliant by Hamilton. Spa? What was wrong with his Spa race?

And why so much focus on Hamilton in a Vettel thread? I thought Vettel would be able to stand on his own feet as a racing superstar by now but it seems his supportors need Hamilton as a sort of standard to compare him to. When in fact, if they were both in the same cars this year.. Vettel would be dominated in Qualifying!

[joeyg02]

In my opinion he's a good driver, but he's no Alonso, Schumacher, or Senna. He had an EXCELLENT car under him for two years. Put him in Alonso's ferrari and see what he could do with it. He'a a great driver but he's got years to learn, just like Hamilton.

[CjC]

one answer to the question-

YES!!

[mnmracer]

As long as people keep applying double standards, he is both overrated and underrated. Considering the amount of people using double standards against him though, he's clearly being generally underrated.

Take just two examples on this very page:

• "Hamilton is already one of the greats. Greatest Rookie, Youngest World Champion in Formula 1 years. etc. Best overtaker etc."
  Yet when we're talking about the youngest driver to score points, youngest race leader, youngest pole sitter, youngest winner, youngest double world champion, we need to question his skills?
• "Hamilton was crashing into Massa Maldonado Kobayashi etc because he was on the limit"
  Yet when Vettel crashes twice in 2010, he is forever branded as an amateur.

[bhall]

[Nevermind]

[LionKing]

As long as people keep applying double standards, he is both overrated and underrated. Considering the amount of people using double standards against him though, he's clearly being generally underrated.

Take just two examples on this very page:

• "Hamilton is already one of the greats. Greatest Rookie, Youngest World Champion in Formula 1 years. etc. Best overtaker etc."
  Yet when we're talking about the youngest driver to score points, youngest race leader, youngest pole sitter, youngest winner, youngest double world champion, we need to question his skills?
• "Hamilton was crashing into Massa Maldonado Kobayashi etc because he was on the lim it"
  Yet when Vettel crashes twice in 2010, he is forever branded as an amateur.

"Or Vettel always wins from front", etc... People forget that Lewis has also won from first two rows only, twice form P4. If my memory serves me right, he was first or second after the first corner in all by one victory.

"Vettel is just good at driving into the distance from front." As if anybody can dominate that way.. Well, Lewis couldn't replicate it at Australia with the car he had did he? He was not only slower in the race than Button but also Vettel.

Best overtaker my ... "the high risk taker" is a better description...

Hamilton's crashes last year had nothing to do with being on the limit. Drifting on straights into other cars, let me pass or we crash maneuvers is not "being on the limit".

He had one of the two clear best cars in 2007. Finishing 5th would have been enough to clinch the WDC at Brasil. After losing half a minute at the start, he had the whole race to put things in order with the car he had. He finished a lap down. In 2008 if it weren't for Glock slowing down on final corners final lap , it would have been another WDC down the drain... That is same track when Schumacher started from the back (EDIT: ***I checked he had started form 10th place my bad ***] in 2006 and in a few laps he was 6th. Got a puncture passing Fisi. He went back almost a lap down. He still finished 4th 25 seconds behind Massa.

Going into final race in 2010 in 3rd place, when championship was on the line, Vettel put the hammer down, outqualified his teammate by more than 5 tenths, did not put a foot wrong and won the WDC!

Finally, it is time to stop bothering when someone express his opinion about a hypothetical situation and begins his sentence with in fact.... "When in fact, if they were both in the same cars this year.. Vettel would be dominated in Qualifying! "

[marcush.]

very fittingly rosberg has bemoaned his career as less successful than other drivers because he did not have the benefit of driving the best car ...
So implicitly he says others just won because of better hardware ...or in other words they< are all mediocre and just need the best equipment to deliver.
To me this is a bit of a stretch really .It seems virtually impossible to win as a driver alone .A HRT will not win a single race no matter who is sitting behind the steering wheel .
BUT Vettel was instrumental in turning things around first for Toro Rosso and then for RedBull something Rosberg for example cannot claim for his career so far.
Is he as convincing as Alonso or Schumacher ? I´m not yet sure of this but still he has some potential left in him ,when someone needs to think long where Alonso could possibly make steps forward .

[bhall]

[...]
BUT Vettel was instrumental in turning things around first for Toro Rosso and then for RedBull something Rosberg for example cannot claim for his career so far.
[...]

Was that Vettel, or was it Newey having four sets of data when everyone else had two?

[Nando]

[...]
BUT Vettel was instrumental in turning things around first for Toro Rosso and then for RedBull something Rosberg for example cannot claim for his career so far.
[...]

Was that Vettel, or was it Newey having four sets of data when everyone else had two?

Did STR stay competitive after Vettel left?

I don´t disagree with what you said about Newey having bit more to work with but i think we should definitely not count out Vettel.

There is no question he is a very good driver. He is undoubtedly a talent. This is coming from a person who wants to chop off his annoying little finger.
But i´m not blind, ever since he drove in Indianapolis for BMW he has put in strong performances in all cars he´s been in.

With that said i´m gonna leave you with a question,

What is the difference between Vettel and "the annoying Frog" ?

[bhall]

See, it's not a knock against Vettel when I ask such a question. Regardless of how or why, he led all Red Bull drivers in 2008.

I just find it difficult to make any sort of qualitative judgments about him. He's been handed every conceivable advantage throughout his entire F1 career, and, to his credit, he's made the most of it.

But, I have no idea what that means overall.

[Nando]

So how would one do a qualitative judgement on Hamilton in terms of his F1 "skills"?

He has had race winning cars since the start.

Edit: i guess you could say Alonso. There we had a yard-stick for Hamilton.
Perhaps we just need Vettel to team up with either one to really find out where he´s at.

[bhall]

Vettel and Hamilton are really in the same boat. Despite their success, their careers are still too young to make these kinds of judgments.

Hamilton matched an imploding Alonso during his rookie season in a great car. I don't know what that means. He won the World Championship the next year when both he and Massa, as well as their respective teams, appeared to do all they could to shoot themselves in the foot. I don't know what that means, either.

Vettel has driven a Newey masterpiece every year of his career save for his rookie season, and he's done so against a driver who was never rated all that highly until he himself got into a Newey car, too. I have no clue what that means.

I think they're still just too inexorably linked to their teams/cars at this point to say anything with any real sense of perspective.

[marcush.]

make no bones about it ,nobody else delivered at Toro rosso before and after.Bourdais who is a top performer in everything he has put his ..ss in just looked mediocre compared to him..even if he was admittedly close at times but had no lobby within the team especially with Berger.

[mnmracer]

This is what we know:

• Adrian Newey designed the Red Bull cars from 2006 - 2008, in which their best results were one third place per season.
• Similarly, Newey influenced two Toro Rosso cars before any results came in (although Vettel almost took 3rd in a rain soaked Japanese GP).
• The first new Toro Rosso car after Vettel joined the team, went from a backmarker car to a sub-top car that won the Italian Grand Prix and actually beat Toro Rosso.
• The combination of Mark Webber and Adrian Newey, in two years, only produced one podium finish. The year Sebastian Vettel joined Red Bull Racing, they won their first GP in the third race.

• Everyone that has worked with him, praises Sebastian Vettel for his technical skills, his work ethics and endless desire to improve (himself and the car).
• Just two points in cases: he was the only driver to visit the Pirelli factory prior to their entry in Formula One and he spent half the Abu Dhabi GP figuring out just why his tire burst.
• We have seen this year, instead of being satisfied with a car driving around in 6th place, he was trying different configurations; some worked, some didn't, but the RB8 was back to dominating in two/three races.

Taking all this knowledge into consideration, maybe, just maybe, could we make an assumption that Vettel is a very talented developping driver (as well), and it is not just Newey? That Vettel, like his idol Mr. Schumacher, can take the team in a new direction and turn it around into a winning car. And of course, just like Schumacher had Brawn/Byrne and Todd with him at Ferrari, Vettel has Newey and Horner by his side, but that doesn't mean Schumacher deserves any less praise for turning around a sub-top Ferrari. Whether he's on Schumi level or not, we don't know, but just putting it all down to Newey is a little simple.

Either that, or it is extremely coincidental that before Vettel joined a team, it was sub-par, and after, while all other factors remained the same (budget, designer) it turns into a much better/winning car.