Mercedes GP 2011

[Dragonfly]

That, if nothing else, should tell you who is really in charge of this team, or do you think Norbert is on that cell-phone just discuss fussball, mun? History tells us that German companies involved in Britain have very little faith in John Bull and friends.

And vice versa, I'd say.

But, that's an off.

Problem is, we as fans, do not have the sufficient minimum of information. And this leads to fast exhausting of a thread. Maybe the lack of testing and all bans and limitations are the reason and indirectly affect the pure technical aspects of the forum.
(this in relation to the discussion at the bottom of the forum, off again, sorry)

[PlatinumZealot]

Of course, with their "Mercedes select" engines, they have at least 30 Hp more than everyone else, perhaps as much as 50?

Withou those engies, they would be absolutely nowhere.

An increase in 50hp is hundreds of thousands of dollars in engine development. (See BMW engine development paper) Unlikely difference between two identical engines.

[Pierce89]

rereading the Brawn piece ,I get the impression they have not understood anything..
normalised lap times ...reducing the gap ,6 months out of phase in development and in the next sentence we would have done a different wheelbase as we see too much of a difference in the sweet spot for qualy and race setups...and we did not design the car originally for the sophisticated exhaust arrangements which are performance differntiators these days.
This is just laughable .How can I expect to get closer to the front when I´m not realising what will be the most important technology and how it is applied to the car? Even more :why is there nobody in the team with a ground breaking idea that actually is giving lap time ? They had someone coming up with the outwash front wing and dd difusser in 2008 for 2009 ..where are those people now?

Well, the guy that designed the 2009 wing is supposedly at HRT. I read in that thread at the beginning of the season, before testing that he brought his 2009 wing concept from Brawn, and that was before we ever saw the car. So I guess that's where that guy is.

[marcush.]

Surely he had deep insight into it or they even had the benefit of aquireing the molds on a garage sale perhaps...just fitting they use Brawns old tunnel now.

[Morteza]

Surely he had deep insight into it or they even had the benefit of aquireing the molds on a garage sale perhaps...just fitting they use Brawns old tunnel now.

So according to this, who was left at Brawn when Mercedes bought them? Did they have any worthy staff left there? Now your and X's theory really seems plausible.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Maybe they just got lucky Marcush.

The outwash wing was novel, so there was concrete info they knew how it worked.
Problem is, in this area it could be very sensitive to climatic change ie temprature change, humidity, air density etc.

And to tune it for the rest of the car maybe very hard work, hence why nobody else has followed the 2 element route.
So its for Mercedes to decide now which way they will go, as the 2012 car should be getting under development now.

Brawn has also admitted the car will sport a longer wheel base for 2012. Good start!

But for 2012, I dont see much changing in the pecking order. With a bit of luck maybe Mercedes can actually challenge the front runners for podiums.
So long as we can see them overcoming their issues bit by bit, they will gradually get closer.

[xpensive]

Surely he had deep insight into it or they even had the benefit of aquireing the molds on a garage sale perhaps...just fitting they use Brawns old tunnel now.

So according to this, who was left at Brawn when Mercedes bought them? Did they have any worthy staff left there? Now your and X's theory really seems plausible.

Why would Jenson Button as WDC leave just at a time when Mercedes is moving in, consider that for a second?

[Morteza]

Surely he had deep insight into it or they even had the benefit of aquireing the molds on a garage sale perhaps...just fitting they use Brawns old tunnel now.

So according to this, who was left at Brawn when Mercedes bought them? Did they have any worthy staff left there? Now your and X's theory really seems plausible.

Why would Jenson Button as WDC leave just at a time when Mercedes is moving in, consider that for a second?

That's right, X. He knew what was going on very well when he left the team. He did the right thing. They had emptied the team when Mercedes bought it as it looks.

[marcush.]

Button ,the guy who paid himself out of a signed Williams contract to stay with BAR was all of a sudden prepared to drop his camerades with the silverware he was hunting for already collected...surprise surprise..
Schumacher surely had one or another discussion with jenson about this and with his friend Ross as well.
but to think a increase in wheelbase would turn fortunes around is completely wrong methinks ,as next year there is no hot blowing ,no 10% increase in fuel consumption for
gains in df as it looks ,so who knows if RedBull do not take a leaf out of MGPs book and radically shorten their car to W02 size...
The car lacks ultimate speed around a track ,but in the light of changing regs targets are going to move.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush,

Its not merely a change in wheelbase.

You know full well what happens when you open up the wheel base. More room to create coke bottle rear end, lower CofG etc.
Something they cant really address with 9 races left. rather put resources into next years effort, knowing where you screwed up.

Take action.

Then plan your campaign around this.

Of course the wheelbase isnt where the 1.2 second deficit is. Its a culmination of the little things, and this is being addressed, too slowly for some on here evidently.

[Ferraripilot]

Of course the wheelbase isnt where the 1.2 second deficit is. Its a culmination of the little things, and this is being addressed, too slowly for some on here evidently.

+1 If it were just one thing, they would fix it. However, I believe a lot of their setup issues regarding compromising qualy pace to race pace does have a lot to do with teh high CoG and short wheelbase. That being said, what can W03 retain from W02? Perhaps the nose and suspension? Really, I can't think of much

[marcush.]

Mark my words ,next year we will see significantly shorter cars as the current ones have hit a soft barrier now .
We will see areas of development in cooling packages and especially radiator shapes all areas Mercedes adressed already but somehow just did notr get right .
So in a ways W02 may be at the forefront of 2012 designs but the lack of integration and too much of a compromise intead of looking for win win solutions is hampering the design.

[xpensive]

Mark my words ,next year we will see significantly shorter cars as the current ones have hit a soft barrier now.
...

Really marcush, I'm dying to get the download on that theory, please elaborate?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Mark my words ,next year we will see significantly shorter cars as the current ones have hit a soft barrier now .
We will see areas of development in cooling packages and especially radiator shapes all areas Mercedes adressed already but somehow just did notr get right .
So in a ways W02 may be at the forefront of 2012 designs but the lack of integration and too much of a compromise intead of looking for win win solutions is hampering the design.

So Marcush,

Why are you laying into the squad?
If they where looking at the long game, this year will be a "teething year" with issues they have been experiencing.
Like Ferraripilot, I think we will see an altogether much changed car. Maybe 1 or 2 things carried over, but the W02 is near obsolete if Brawn is to be believed.
He has no planned upgrades and thwe team is primarily focused on set up from here on in for the rest of 2011.
Not much can be learned from tyres either as they will be changed for 2012, as will the manadatory mass distribution. A huge reason why I think cars will retain LWB.

Brawn said the car will carry a longer wheelbase too, for what its worth.

[marcush.]

Mark my words ,next year we will see significantly shorter cars as the current ones have hit a soft barrier now.
...

Really marcush, I'm dying to get the download on that theory, please elaborate?

hehe .it´s more a gut feeling than a downloadable paper ,x. ..

the feeling is :this sort of wheelbase is compromising rigidity of the car and it is increasing the weight of the car.
Ferrari has packaged their car a fair bit shorter than RedBull and Mclaren still fighting for wins ,so increasing the car length is not yielding significant performance gains ,cut of the excess and you got 2kg more ballast to place where you like and next year weight distribution is not fixed anymore so that important area of car setup is revived .

But of course ,I could be wrong and soon we will see 4000mm wheelbase cars winning in Monaco..