2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[godlameroso]

goldy So do you race virtually then correlate with real life results after?
You may be onto something. But can you account for track surface changes?

The track has not changed in the 17 years it's been active. It doesn't get used much, it is full of sandy dust everywhere. They'll be using leaf blowers to move the dust till Friday.

[SiLo]

P2? P2?!? In Qatar? P1, the Red Bull is too fast in the speed range of the corners in Qatar, this is fact.



Now it's their turn to fully send it.

Can you please show me where the facts are in this post?

There was a race in Mexico. It has some esses that are taken above 140km/h. No one could touch RBR in Mexico. Lots of corners in that speed range. Not saying easy win, just saying it's going to be easier to win than it was in Brazil.

Taking Mexico as a given for a type of corner is a bit foolish because it ignores the many other races that show the opposite. Mexico has clearly been an outlier in terms of RB vs Mercedes pace for some years now.

Both Mercedes were also faster in qualifying than Red Bull in sector 2, that is mostly made up of those esses.

[etusch]

[godlameroso]

Can you please show me where the facts are in this post?

There was a race in Mexico. It has some esses that are taken above 140km/h. No one could touch RBR in Mexico. Lots of corners in that speed range. Not saying easy win, just saying it's going to be easier to win than it was in Brazil.

Taking Mexico as a given for a type of corner is a bit foolish because it ignores the many other races that show the opposite. Mexico has clearly been an outlier in terms of RB vs Mercedes pace for some years now.

Both Mercedes were also faster in qualifying than Red Bull in sector 2, that is mostly made up of those esses.

Hmm well then let's examine turn 10 in Zandvoort. Very flat corner, long radius, RBR were untouchable there. Lots of corners like that in Losail. Only 1 corner with a slow clumsy exit, the rest are all medium and high speed and require lots of downforce.

Qatar motorsport chief Amro Al-Hamad said “It’s very technical. It needs a lot of downforce. There are a lot of strategies that are going to be involved with the tyre wear here as well.”

Hamilton himself has said they lack downforce relative to the Red Bulls.

[ringo]

In Brasil redbull were slower in sector 2 in qualifying because of tyre prep. Maybe they could have dond a better job and maybe that wont be an issue in qatar.

[dans79]

Hamilton himself has said they lack downforce relative to the Red Bulls.

Again, that was Mexico (the highest altitude track of the season) where Red Bull could throw on more dirty downforce than anyone else. That wont work this weekend, As Mexico levels of downforce will make them slow compared to the rest of the grid.

[godlameroso]

Hamilton himself has said they lack downforce relative to the Red Bulls.

Again, that was Mexico (the highest altitude track of the season) where Red Bull could throw on more dirty downforce than anyone else. That wont work this weekend, As Mexico levels of downforce will make them slow compared to the rest of the grid.

They had enough dirty downforce to beat Mercedes at COTA, enough dirty downforce to beat Mercedes in Paul Ricard, Bahrain, Austria, Zandvoort(literally at sea level) those circuits weren't at super high altitude like Mexico. What they did have in common was a lot of aero dependent corners, something the Red Bull excels at. Mexico was just the icing on the cake, you don't get a better read for downforce than there. Even Mercedes fearless leader says Red Bull has more downforce this year.

Losail requires a lot of downforce, thus says the circuit director. Perez has raced and won here, so we do have some data, even if it is 12 years old.

[godlameroso]

In Brasil redbull were slower in sector 2 in qualifying because of tyre prep. Maybe they could have dond a better job and maybe that wont be an issue in qatar.

The soft tire will have some overheating issue at the end of sector 3, that's why I went wide on the final corner. I could put in a little more tire pressure and the temperature would hold, but I was giving up .25 in pace from having the tires in the perfect window so I made the temperature trade off.

[SiLo]

Hamilton himself has said they lack downforce relative to the Red Bulls.

Again, that was Mexico (the highest altitude track of the season) where Red Bull could throw on more dirty downforce than anyone else. That wont work this weekend, As Mexico levels of downforce will make them slow compared to the rest of the grid.

They had enough dirty downforce to beat Mercedes at COTA, enough dirty downforce to beat Mercedes in Paul Ricard, Bahrain, Austria, Zandvoort(literally at sea level) those circuits weren't at super high altitude like Mexico. What they did have in common was a lot of aero dependent corners, something the Red Bull excels at. Mexico was just the icing on the cake, you don't get a better read for downforce than there. Even Mercedes fearless leader says Red Bull has more downforce this year.

Losail requires a lot of downforce, thus says the circuit director. Perez has raced and won here, so we do have some data, even if it is 12 years old.

So are you just going to ignore all the other races where Mercedes were faster, at tracks that are far more similar to Losail than any of the ones you mentioned? You can't just cherry pick a quote from an outlier race and then say "Look! I'm right!". Anyone can do that and create a narrative that conforms to their desires and beliefs.

Bahrain was very early season, the cars were closely matched, both Lewis AND Max could have won that race. Austria and Mexico has been terrible for Merc for a while now, and good for Red Bull.

As stated by Mercedes multiple times, they really didn't like the aggressive banking and lost all their time in the banked corners.

[dans79]

They had enough dirty downforce to beat Mercedes at COTA, enough dirty downforce to beat Mercedes in Paul Ricard, Bahrain, Austria, Zandvoort(literally at sea level) those circuits weren't at super high altitude like Mexico. What they did have in common was a lot of aero dependent corners, something the Red Bull excels at. Mexico was just the icing on the cake, you don't get a better read for downforce than there. Even Mercedes fearless leader says Red Bull has more downforce this year.

Paul Ricard, Bahrain, Austria, where all long before Merc got on top of their car aero stability issues that first appeared in Silverstone. In Austin Merc Intentionally altered their set-up and raised the ride height (you can look it up) to deal with the bumps, and ensure they didn't damage the car.

As I said Yesterday Zandvoort was a track that's was never going to suit the Merc well, with its tight undulating nature and constant camber changes. Simply put The Merc Chassis is not optimized for that with its stiffer suspension and longer wheelbase. With that being said Merc only missed pole by 0.038s, so they weren't as disadvantaged as it might seem.

Losail requires a lot of downforce, thus says the circuit director. Perez has raced and won here, so we do have some data, even if it is 12 years old.

"A lot" isn't equivalent to "maximum". Mexico is like Monaco (maximum DF circuits), throw on every bit of DF you can generate, and disregard how that effect's your DF to drag ratio! Hungary and Spain are both high downforce tracks, and Red Bull didn't have their own way there. In Spain pole was very close, But Max couldn't pull away and build a gap because of tire wear. In Hungary, Red Bull had se-up issues that meant they couldn't get the tires working thy way they wanted, and thus couldn't challenge for pole.

In other words, implying that DF is the only, or perdoment factor in determining what car will be the best at any given track is incorrect. Numerous characteristics of the car, the track, and weather conditions all contribute to what car will be best on any given track on any given weakened.

[Revs84]

I haven't had the time to study the teams' performance at different tracks, nor the time to dig into Losail. However, if I can put things down simplistically, it seems to me that if a track has long sweeping corners and requires downforce, it would generally favour Red Bull.

The latter is quite obvious, but in the case of the former, Mercedes would not be able to exploit their diffuser stalling mechanism to its full potential due to such corners. Something which seemed to have been a factor in Austin.

Then there's of course other factors such as track temperatures and who manages to dial in the setup the most. However, given how tricky the RB16B is to set up, going back to a conventional 3 session FP weekend might help Red Bull a lot.

This is based on what I have seen and read, but I might be completely wrong..

[SiLo]

I haven't had the time to study the teams' performance at different tracks, nor the time to dig into Losail. However, if I can put things down simplistically, it seems to me that if a track has long sweeping corners and requires downforce, it would generally favour Red Bull.

The latter is quite obvious, but in the case of the former, Mercedes would not be able to exploit their diffuser stalling mechanism to its full potential due to such corners. Something which seemed to have been a factor in Austin.

Then there's of course other factors such as track temperatures and who manages to dial in the setup the most. However, given how tricky the RB16B is to set up, going back to a conventional 3 session FP weekend might help Red Bull a lot.

This is based on what I have seen and read, but I might be completely wrong..

I think those are all very fair points. I think it's very hard for anyone to know if the diffuser stalling thing is gaining the team X amount of time, especially seeing as it's been there for a while and all teams run a form of it.

I think Barcelona is probably the closest track in terms of corners and straights. Both cars were very fast there.

[AeroDynamic]

I think it’s all the rake mechanism they have deployed. Armchair experts are being too dismissive of it based on all cars doing it to some degree. The point is, they don’t do it enough to achieve the degree or effect the MCS does. It’s completely flat on its arse. Low rake to no rake. No other car can do that. That’s why it can wear all that downforce and wing but dump a lot of it off on the straights

[NathanOlder]

I haven't had the time to study the teams' performance at different tracks, nor the time to dig into Losail. However, if I can put things down simplistically, it seems to me that if a track has long sweeping corners and requires downforce, it would generally favour Red Bull.

The latter is quite obvious, but in the case of the former, Mercedes would not be able to exploit their diffuser stalling mechanism to its full potential due to such corners. Something which seemed to have been a factor in Austin.

Then there's of course other factors such as track temperatures and who manages to dial in the setup the most. However, given how tricky the RB16B is to set up, going back to a conventional 3 session FP weekend might help Red Bull a lot.

This is based on what I have seen and read, but I might be completely wrong..

I think those are all very fair points. I think it's very hard for anyone to know if the diffuser stalling thing is gaining the team X amount of time, especially seeing as it's been there for a while and all teams run a form of it.

I think Barcelona is probably the closest track in terms of corners and straights. Both cars were very fast there.

Indeed, and RedBull were only faster than Mercedes in sector 3 in qualy. The sector of all slow corners. Sector 2 with the faster corners , Mercedes were nearly 2 tenths faster than RedBull. So there is plenty of evidence to say Mercedes do better in the medium and high speed

[godlameroso]

Again, that was Mexico (the highest altitude track of the season) where Red Bull could throw on more dirty downforce than anyone else. That wont work this weekend, As Mexico levels of downforce will make them slow compared to the rest of the grid.

They had enough dirty downforce to beat Mercedes at COTA, enough dirty downforce to beat Mercedes in Paul Ricard, Bahrain, Austria, Zandvoort(literally at sea level) those circuits weren't at super high altitude like Mexico. What they did have in common was a lot of aero dependent corners, something the Red Bull excels at. Mexico was just the icing on the cake, you don't get a better read for downforce than there. Even Mercedes fearless leader says Red Bull has more downforce this year.

Losail requires a lot of downforce, thus says the circuit director. Perez has raced and won here, so we do have some data, even if it is 12 years old.

So are you just going to ignore all the other races where Mercedes were faster, at tracks that are far more similar to Losail than any of the ones you mentioned? You can't just cherry pick a quote from an outlier race and then say "Look! I'm right!". Anyone can do that and create a narrative that conforms to their desires and beliefs.

Bahrain was very early season, the cars were closely matched, both Lewis AND Max could have won that race. Austria and Mexico has been terrible for Merc for a while now, and good for Red Bull.

As stated by Mercedes multiple times, they really didn't like the aggressive banking and lost all their time in the banked corners.

Such as?
Barcelona was nip and tuck, and bad strategy cost Verstappen the race more than a pace deficit, same in Bahrain. Mercedes were stronger on the exits of corners and could manage their rear tires better. That's a fact. Portimao has nothing but corners where exit traction wins, any corner that requires carrying speed through it is easy flat. Mercedes didn't win in Hungary and had to use political means to get his man into P2. Russia, well I mean Hamilton only had to beat Norris, so sure. Silverstone? LOL! Where else did Mercedes win post Silverstone upgrade...Turkey and Brazil, Turkey was in the wet, and Bottas's Mercedes with superior exit traction and top speed won, and then finally Brazil.

Brazil is at elevation so the same excuse about dirty downforce should hold as well. Brazil doesn't have many mid to high speed corners that require you to carry speed through. It does have an abundance of corners that require exit traction, getting a good run out of Juncao helps massively down the main straight.

"they really didn't like the aggressive banking and lost all their time in the banked corners."

Then they're going to struggle in Losail, it's not as flat as the sims have you believe, there's a fair bit of undulation and camber on the road that's not easy to see. I tried to drive with this in mind.