Starts (why Mark Webber is losing out)

[HampusA]

I did some time ago in other thread quick and dirty calculations with foilsim III and it was about 30-40 kgf from exhaust alone. Taking additional jet pump effect into account not insignificant numbers. Tricky part - if you got to much wheelspin, you go off the throttle and loose this additional downforce - very sensitive negative control loop.

The same for Renault, which produces their downforce by blowing leading edge of the floor, but they usually go off the line pretty good, so it's up to Mark IMO.

Holy crap, that much!? i thought at tops 5kg maybe
Well that was interesting i have to say, thanks!

[Fil]

All interesting, but irrelevant to the OP's question.


Why are Webber's starts so consistently bad?



Almost every car on the grid has a variant of the EBD.
Every driver has 2 clutch pedals, adjustable clutch bite point, a sensitive throttle, tyre pressures & heat etc to play with.. yet it is Mark who has the consistently terrible starts.

Why him? What is he doing so differently from Seb & the rest? And why, well over halfway through the season, has he not been able to arrest his issue(s)?

[Lycoming]

Its the same problem every time; the revs drop too much when he dumps the clutch, and he either bogs down or goes into anti stall.

the question is why is that happening to him at the start of what is starting to feel like every race? Is it because they can't get their clutch set properly? is the clutch too "grippy"? is Mark just a really bad starter? is it something else entirely? your guess is as good as mine.

[HampusA]

What things can the engineers do from the booths?

If we assume RBR is fiddling with Webber to really secure Vettel´s championship,
what would actually be possible to change from the booth in terms of performance.

Reason i think RBR might have a slight hand in it is because Mark Webber sits in the fastest car on the grid. He´s number 2 in the standings.
You really want to keep him as far away from Vettel´s points as possible because that means the championship will close earlier.

Another thing that really got me wondering was Vettel at Monza in 09 or 10, think it was ´10.
the words he used could make you believe that he was thinking that the team was hampering his performance on track.

he said stuff like "you got to be shitting me etc"

[Richard]

Technically, only the driver can change settings on the car once it has left the garage.

In conspiracy theory land, the team team Mark to select setting X that causes his car to bog down at the start.

Strategically, the idea is bunkum

[marekk]

Why Mark ?

Well, we will never know for sure, but how effecitive an control loop works, depends apart form other aspects on how quickly one can apply correction inputs. And everyone has his very physical limits. If your reaction time (lets say ear to foot) is > 0.2s and there is need to apply corrections after < 0.1s, you have no chance. Simple as that, not all people are built the same.
James Allen wrote one time about some tests (you see the name of the colour on the screen and have to hit the knob painted with the same colour). He got about 80 hits in 1 minute, with about 10% error rate. Kubica was at 150/min, and first error occured at > 300.

[raymondu999]

Another thing that really got me wondering was Vettel at Monza in 09 or 10, think it was ´10.
the words he used could make you believe that he was thinking that the team was hampering his performance on track.

he said stuff like "you got to be shitting me etc"

Vettel had a brake problem in Monza 2010; his brakes kept on clamping the brake disc even when he wasn't on the brakes; for a couple of laps. Given that that would've cost him some acceleration, Vettel said on the radio, "Problem with the engine! Problem with the engine! Seems like it's dying! Engine is dying on me!"

His engineer tells him to stay out as they try to look at the telemetry. Webber was just behind him and capitalized on this, overtaking him into Parabolica. Vettel was angry and said "Seriously guys, are you ****ing me or what?"

There; that might refresh your memory

[HampusA]

Technically, only the driver can change settings on the car once it has left the garage.

In conspiracy theory land, the team team Mark to select setting X that causes his car to bog down at the start.

Strategically, the idea is bunkum

ok good to know, i was always curious on Vettel´s words though in Monza.
to me it sounded like "come on guys, why are you hampering me?" but in different words obviously.

Yes i thought about that, as i said, the drivers makes the final call on how to set up the starts but my conspiracy guess would be RBR giving him bad numbers.

In kindergarden terms: Assume RBR says "put X on 5" This gives Webber a play of 4-6 probably has he´s the last man to tweak the settings.
Instead they say "put X on 3"

Last sentence i don´t really understand but that´s because of me not knowing the full spectrum of the english language.
I do however get the feeling you say that "either way, it´s a bad choice for RBR"
Correct?

[raymondu999]

Hampus - I've transcribed the whole incident in the previous post

[HampusA]

Another thing that really got me wondering was Vettel at Monza in 09 or 10, think it was ´10.
the words he used could make you believe that he was thinking that the team was hampering his performance on track.

he said stuff like "you got to be shitting me etc"

Vettel had a brake problem in Monza 2010; his brakes kept on clamping the brake disc even when he wasn't on the brakes; for a couple of laps. Given that that would've cost him some acceleration, Vettel said on the radio, "Problem with the engine! Problem with the engine! Seems like it's dying! Engine is dying on me!"

His engineer tells him to stay out as they try to look at the telemetry. Webber was just behind him and capitalized on this, overtaking him into Parabolica. Vettel was angry and said "Seriously guys, are you ****ing me or what?"

There; that might refresh your memory

thanks It´s that last part that gets me wondering. Why would you in a way put the blame on your team instead of simply seeing it as a techincal fault which happened ALOT in 2010 with RBR.

Again, i don´t really think there´s a conspiracy going on but i have to admit the choice of his words atleast interests me because of what he said.
It´s almost like he knew this information beforehand (that nr1 driver will get priority) but since he was off in the points compared to Alonso and Webber he asked them if they were pulling the trick that was really meant for Webber as RBR assumed Vettel would clinch the title that year (which he did but nobody thought that, not even RBR)

I´ve had a few beers right now so this above might sound like jibberish but doesn´t the words: "Seriously guys, are you ****ing me or what?"
sound suspicious? Maybe it´s just me..

[HampusA]

Hampus - I've transcribed the whole incident in the previous post

Raymond, thanks, i noticed you posted as i tried to post mine
"Answer" should be right above

[strad]

Most teams have this down to where it's close to launch control.
So the question remains..Is it the car/engineers or Webbo?

[Lycoming]

I´ve had a few beers right now so this above might sound like jibberish but doesn´t the words: "Seriously guys, are you ****ing me or what?"
sound suspicious? Maybe it´s just me..

he was frustrated that his team wasn't doing anything to help his problem at the time and said it in the heat of the moment.

drop the conspiracy crap. why would they purposely make one car slower to win? it doesn't make sense. letting a teamate behind pass or holding a gap when you already have a 1-2 finish is one thing, deliberately slowing down a car at any point by such an extent is downright stupid.

[HampusA]

There´s no conspiracy crap going on. Don´t assume the world runs on butter mate.
I never claimed that was the case nor did i present stuff as evidence so shut it.

Why they would make one cars slower to win? Well if you give Vettel as much room as he needs then the championship would be over quicker then if Webber would have fought with himi every race.

If you have the two fastest cars on the grid on all tracks. Obviosuly RBR comes before Vette or Webber.

How do i speed the championship up? You make webber pay.
Vettel can extend his lead and clinch the title much earlier then expected.
that is BRR´s goal. Second is contructors.

[LionKing]

There´s no conspiracy crap going on. Don´t assume the world runs on butter mate.
I never claimed that was the case nor did i present stuff as evidence so shut it.

Why they would make one cars slower to win? Well if you give Vettel as much room as he needs then the championship would be over quicker then if Webber would have fought with himi every race.

If you have the two fastest cars on the grid on all tracks. Obviosuly RBR comes before Vette or Webber.

How do i speed the championship up? You make webber pay.
Vettel can extend his lead and clinch the title much earlier then expected.
that is BRR´s goal. Second is contructors.

Webber has not won a race in last 18 races (a full rotated F1 calendar) but meanwhile has been 2nd only four times. In 17 of those 18 he has finished behind Vettel. Webber is by no means a threat to Vettel. Only threat to Vettel is possible reliability issues of RBR as in last year. Webber has awful starts in Jaguar days too and Vettel wasn't aound then...