McLaren-Mercedes, 1995-97.

[munudeges]

The parallel is Renault. They took a few years to get into a winning position, and when they did.......their execs didn't know what to do with it! It wasn't selling any more cars. Once the inevitable decline occurred they couldn't wait to offload the team.

[xpensive]

The parallel is Renault. They took a few years to get into a winning position, and when they did.......their execs didn't know what to do with it! It wasn't selling any more cars. Once the inevitable decline occurred they couldn't wait to offload the team.

I think he difference between Renault and MGP is/were the two teams' management, how could you go wrong with Briatore and Gascoyne?

[Richard]

Benetton didn't have the long standing corporate memory that McLaren brought to the deal with Merc. That's why they couldn't sustain their success, despite Renault buying the team.

Just goes to show that you can't buy sustainable success in F1.

[munudeges]

Indeed Richard, despite the Benetton and Renault team's competence you did question whether they would keep that going and what their commitment was. However, if that's what McLaren brought to Mercedes then it doesn't reflect well on Merc's decision to go it alone.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

In isolation probably.

But when viewed with perspective, Mercedes hand was forced by McLaren. So Mercedes had options available.

Quit: Not when Stuttgart has the appetite it does for F1, nor in this era where teams could in future end up making money instead of spending it just by participation. Nor with an engine freeze till 2014 and a competitive engine that requires minimal development costs.

Continue the McLaren arrangement: Not when they are propping up an on road rivals coffers to the tune of 80 million a season plus engines. This would not wash with anyone, least of all Stuttgart.

Go it alone: A championship winning team with full factory facilities made available at £100 million(a snip considering the cost of starting from scratch).


When you consider that Mercedes stake in McLaren translated into 200 million, they could afford to leave and take the risk making money in the process.
The McLaren arrangement will mean they retain high visibility and an affiliation with the team in exchange for free engines until 2015(or thereabouts).

So Mercedes have in effect not changed anything with McLaren other than they arent pumping 80 million a year into it. Until 2014 at least.

And by that time my money is on Mercedes having gone full circle into a competitive team, earning all the praise and prize money(or criticisms as they are recieving here )rather than having McLaren take the headlines.
Of course they could end up failing and selling out, but not until we can see what the Benz V6 turbo can do and wether Zetsches protege(a staunch supporter of Mercedes F1 involvement).

Excuse the lengthy post but it is relevant when comparing Mercedes to McLaren of 1995-7, as they were in a similar position with Sauber jumping to the big time boys McLaren.

[Richard]

2014 ... by that time my money is on Mercedes having gone full circle into a competitive team

I agree the circle will be emerging by 2014, but it could go either way. Will it be a repeat of Honda or McLaren? They have the ingredients to make to the big time, but we have also seen that it is hard to buy success.

I see this as the Honda team being dragged up by Merc's cash, and their experience of McLaren giving them insight to what makes a successful team. If they pull it off then it'll be a first where BMW,Ford, Renault, Toyota & Honda all failed. That'd say the odds are stacked against them.

However Red Bull have shown it is possible to build a team to challenge Ferrari & McLaren. Can Merc's grey suits replicate the uniqueness of Red Bull?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Hmmm

I see this as Mercedes not wanting to spend the cash willy nilly as per <name manufacturer here>.
McLaren involvement means Mercedes know this is about having the people and the ability along with the tools to do the job.

Thus far Mercedes have invested in a new sim and various other bits and bobs, as well as hiring some big names. So thats the people and tools covered, now we need them to show the ability....

[timbo]

I think he difference between Renault and MGP is/were the two teams' management, how could you go wrong with Briatore and Gascoyne?

A praise for Briatore from you, x??

[xpensive]

Are you kidding? I love the man, Briatore would make MGP winners in a heartbeat!

On topic;
I think McLaren-Mercedes 1995-97, was an xcellent xample on how to go about it when entering F1 as an engine-supplier.

Perhaps Coloni-Subaru is at the other end of the scale?

[Ferraripilot]

X = Briatore haha. just needed to throw a light note in the mix

[xpensive]

Taking charge of mid-fielders Toleman/Benetton in 1990, he made them winners in 1992 and WDC/WCC in 1994-95.
In 1996-97, he lost MS and the technical staff to Ferrari, but still bounced back as WDC and WCC in 2005-06.

This despite being coersed by MrM to take on Nick Wirth as Chief designer, basically loosing four seasons 1997-00.

[munudeges]

Continue the McLaren arrangement: Not when they are propping up an on road rivals coffers to the tune of 80 million a season plus engines. This would not wash with anyone, least of all Stuttgart.

On the contrary, resource sharing is the cost effective thing to do in these times of austerity and all car companies are having to do it. 80 million a season and engines is small fry compared to what they will be pumping into their own team to get in to win even one race.

Go it alone: A championship winning team with full factory facilities made available at £100 million(a snip considering the cost of starting from scratch).

I'm afraid they're going to have to put in a lot more than 100 million every season to get the team to where Mercedes needs it to be. Plus free engines.

So Mercedes have in effect not changed anything with McLaren other than they arent pumping 80 million a year into it. Until 2014 at least.

Instead they're going to be pumping in probably more than twice that amount every season to not win any races for many years? Great maths there.

Stuttgart got their noses rubbed up the wrong way when they realised they couldn't just buy McLaren as they had Ilmor. I know people will perform all kinds of mental gymnastics about how cost effective this all is, but the fact is it is all about stupid short-term pride that is likely to quickly run out.

[xpensive]

...
Stuttgart got their noses rubbed up the wrong way when they realised they couldn't just buy McLaren as they had Ilmor. I know people will perform all kinds of mental gymnastics about how cost effective this all is, but the fact is it is all about stupid short-term pride that is likely to quickly run out.

The above has a strange deja vu about it, didn't another German outfit xperience something similar a few years back?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

On the contrary, resource sharing is the cost effective thing to do in these times of austerity and all car companies are having to do it. 80 million a season and engines is small fry compared to what they will be pumping into their own team to get in to win even one race.


I'm afraid they're going to have to put in a lot more than 100 million every season to get the team to where Mercedes needs it to be. Plus free engines.


Instead they're going to be pumping in probably more than twice that amount every season to not win any races for many years? Great maths there.

Stuttgart got their noses rubbed up the wrong way when they realised they couldn't just buy McLaren as they had Ilmor. I know people will perform all kinds of mental gymnastics about how cost effective this all is, but the fact is it is all about stupid short-term pride that is likely to quickly run out.

Its a bit of a lopsided argument you are making. First of Mercedes didnt recieve a single penny from McLaren on top of the 80 million they gave them every year. Not from sponsors or prize money.

Secondly,Mercedes will keep every penny of their own sponsorship from their huge petronas deal and other smaller deals from puma and others. On top of this they get all their own prize money. So when you calculate it they end up investing the same as before.

When you calculate that Petronas invest 20-25 million a year, along with the smaller sponsorship deals making up around 8-10 million and the prize money making up around 50 million conservatively. Thats around 85 million before Mercedes even needs to start thinking of burning the 80 million it gave McLaren every year. 160 million budget before they start spending any more than they have in the past.... So hows my maths out when you forget about these figures?

[xpensive]

...
When you calculate that Petronas invest 20-25 million a year, along with the smaller sponsorship deals making up around 8-10 million and the prize money making up around 50 million conservatively.
...

It has always been argued that the incentive for paying an aging MS 20+ MEUR per annum for returning to F1 was for him to attract sponsorship. I get the firm impression that the pay-back from that money is not xactly earth-shattering, is it now?