How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

[ringo]

Let's not forget that pirelli had a toyota F1 car for a whole year to design the tyres. Simulation is one thing, but it doesn't tell them everything.
I don't think they intentionally designed the tyre to create so much marbles, or to be so much slower than the BS.
Or to have so may random puntures.
The tyre has changed over the year, to be fair to them, and it looks like it just may be more durable next year and more linear.
Though i still think consistency is a cause for concern.

[Jersey Tom]

Is there any chance your practical experience is dated?

No. This is what I do professionally.

[hardingfv32]

No. This is what I do professionally.

Yes, I figured that this is your profession and I am appreciative of your insights on various subjects.

In this case, what I mean by dated is 2-5 years old. Does your organization have budgets similar to F1 to spend on proprietary simulation development and correlation testing? I am assuming they have the budgets to make big and rapid advances in this field. Since it is proprietary I am not sure you could judge how advanced they are.

Brian

[DaveW]

I am assuming they have the budgets to make big and rapid advances in this field. Since it is proprietary I am not sure you could judge how advanced they are.

I'm not sure about budgets, but I am sure that tyre models are a current "hot topic" in the DIL simulator world, which is itself a current major investment of F1 teams. I'm also sure that modelling technology would be "proprietary", as you put it, - but Pirelli have contracted to share tyre information with the Teams.

Perhaps you can judge how advanced tyre simulations are by considering the following questions:

- Can Pirelli manufacture consistent tyre sets?
- Can Teams predict tyre life accurately?
- Can Teams achieve reliable set-ups "out of the box"?
- Why do Teams spend so much time during free practice doing both single lap & "stint" testing?
- Can all Teams achieve a satisfactory set-up compromise for the two tyre types they are required to use?

Of course tyre simulations are not the only components of a DIL simulation that are required to be understood and modelled to create a realistic platform, but they are, arguably, the most challenging.

[hardingfv32]

Perhaps you can judge how advanced tyre simulations are by considering the following questions:

- Can Pirelli manufacture consistent tyre sets?
- Can Teams predict tyre life accurately?
- Can Teams achieve reliable set-ups "out of the box"?
- Why do Teams spend so much time during free practice doing both single lap & "stint" testing?
- Can all Teams achieve a satisfactory set-up compromise for the two tyre types they are required to use?

The consistency of tire sets is a manufacturing and/or chemistry issue that could be treated as a statistical variable programmed into the simulation. The amount of inconsistency would have to be based on the tire history you have available and assumes you have a way to measure this inconsistency. This implies that the simulation will not be perfect for every set of tires, or track and weather conditions for that matter. Accounting for these variables does allow the analysis of the best compromises to a car's setup or gambling on a setup that is on either end of the spectrum.

Predicting tire life or "out of the box" setups depends on these variables that will not be know until the car is on the track.

Brian

[MIKEY_!]

So the FIA knew in advance to say the tire was meant to have a short life? Why would they cover for Pirelli like that? I'd have thought Bernie would have made a big fuss and had something done about it. The FIA said they wanted to make the racing more exciting with Pirelli's help and these tires have done that.

[DaveW]

The consistency of tire sets is a manufacturing and/or chemistry issue that could be treated as a statistical variable programmed into the simulation. The amount of inconsistency would have to be based on the tire history you have available and assumes you have a way to measure this inconsistency. This implies that the simulation will not be perfect for every set of tires, or track and weather conditions for that matter. Accounting for these variables does allow the analysis of the best compromises to a car's setup or gambling on a setup that is on either end of the spectrum.

A good defensive answer (if I may say so). It is also mostly accurate - there will always be uncertainties in model variables, & accounting for those statistically is an "advanced" approach, assuming representative statistical information exists, as you say. Whether that model is useful becomes debatable, however, if variance errors are significant. I suspect you could be in danger of concluding that DIL simulators are an expensive toy.

Predicting tire life or "out of the box" setups depends on these variables that will not be know until the car is on the track.

I'm sure that many engineers would agree, but track testing still relies on the assumption that characteristics of tyres having the same structure & compound are similar. I would guess that most manufacturers would try hard to achieve that, which would, I suppose, be a requirement if DIL simulators are to be any more than procedure trainers.

[Jersey Tom]

A good defensive answer (if I may say so). It is also mostly accurate - there will always be uncertainties in model variables, & accounting for those statistically is an "advanced" approach, assuming representative statistical information exists, as you say.

More importantly - assuming you have time to add these variables to what is an already time pressed environment.

You can try to model or simulate whatever the hell you want. That's the relatively easy part. But, you're not going to have the time or manpower to do it all. You have to choose what to focus on, and what to skip.

[hardingfv32]

DaveW

Am I defending the benefits of the simulators?

1) I view the tire, weather, and track conditions variables as a constant that is the same for all the teams. The goal is to design a model that allows for optimization of the car using known variables that you have control over. Maybe develop an understanding of how changes to the tires, weather, and track conditions affect your particular setup.

2) How do you view the drivers activities in these simulators?

I think their is an aspect of driver training involved. The engineers are trying to train the driver to deal with higher performing setups that were considered not drive-able in the past.

Brian

[hardingfv32]

You can try to model or simulate whatever the hell you want. That's the relatively easy part. But, you're not going to have the time or manpower to do it all. You have to choose what to focus on, and what to skip.

I think we can assume that the F1 teams, based on the recent construction of new simulator facilities, are spending the money to solve the manpower and time issues you bring up. That is why I say we don't know where developments stand with the F1 simulators.

Brian

[DaveW]

...The engineers are trying to train the driver to deal with higher performing setups that were considered not drive-able in the past.

Apologies, Brian, that is stated as fact. Be grateful to know which engineers, what constitutes a higher performance set-up, & why was it not considered to be drivable.

[hardingfv32]

No, stated as a possible use for the DIL simulators.

I would use current high performance aircraft as an example. Many can not be flown without the the pilot communicating through a computer to the airframe. Could some setups in fringe on the drivers abilities to control the car? Now I am assuming that the simulations can come up with setups that increase car performance at the expenses of some of the driver's preferences or skills.

Is this an unrealistic assumption?

What is your opinion on what the teams are getting from their DIL simulator investments?

Brian

[DaveW]

There are parallels between agile aircraft & F1 racing cars, but I don't think that stability augmentation is one of them. Automatic control of launch, braking & lateral balance would all help a driver but are not permitted, though there are some controls available to help.

Launch, braking & turn in are driven mainly "open loop" I suspect, & a simulator should help to optimize them - but accurate tyre models are required for it to be realistic.

[raymondu999]

I seem to remember a while back Massa saying the Ferrari simulator with 60GB RAM didn't have enough RAM to simulate tre wear/warmup

[shelly]

Do you have a precise quote for the simulator having 60gb ram only? it seems very little