Mercedes - the eternal debating abyss.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Greetings gato,

I'm referring to Mercedes 9 constructors titles in 12 contested years. In comparison to Audis 3.

[raymondu999]

In all honesty, I don't think things have gone to plan for Mercedes. Were they expecting that in their first year they wouldn't even get a P2, and not a single podium (albeit several close shaves) in 2011, and only 1 solitary win in 2012, which so far doesn't look to be increasing?

In all honesty, even if you factored in the instability caused by a restructuring as well as the change of identity, and completely new driver lineup - which I think they would have allowed a bit of leeway for - I don't think they expected to go from the team who dominated the first half of 2009, taking 8 wins and 4 (I think it's 4?) 1-2s to a team having to fight for podiums, and not even regularly at that.

So far in my personal view, while they are winners now, it doesn't really mean much to me in 2012. They won in China and the record books will forever record that Rosberg was quicker and had better tyre life compared to any other car for pole and the race, of that there is no doubt. But in a year where Pastor Maldonado (who albeit is quick) on his day can take a team that was at the back of the 2011 midfield to a victory - that doesn't mean much to me. (ie. to me what they HAVE shown is that Rosberg - Mercedes is at least as good as Maldonado - Williams, not much else).

In my view there is no denying they have quite seriously undershot their own expectations, and definitely mine. These are obviously my personal views, and some will agree with me, some won't. Great. That's what we call freedom of thought.

But rather than talking of the situation as it is; with some taking the side that Mercedes are performing to plan, others saying there is progress, others saying they are behind and there is no saving them - should we not in fact be looking at what HAS gone wrong - and assuming that no conspiracies are existent - talk of how they could move forward?

All this talk of "they're on the up" "no they're not" "yes they are" isn't getting anywhere, and I fail to see how some are not seeing it. What I CAN see is that this team has room to improve, and those areas should really be, in my view, the prevalent topic of conversation here.

There is no use crying over spilt milk (ie talking about things as they are/have been) - but rather, we should look at why that milk spilt, how it was possible, and start cleaning that spill up. Not to mention designing as spill-proof a bottle as possible.

If you've gotten as far as this comment, thanks for listening

[gato azul]

I much prefer Mercedes' approach in winning than Audi's.

fair enough, nothing wrong with that

Mercedes' approach was much much more sporting.

I take it, you did not watch the Barcelona race in 2007 then, or we may just have a different understanding of the term sporting, which is o.k. as well
Mr. J.Cecotto may don't share your point of view, but so be it.

@ JET
+1 fair game - let's see if this metrics remains your preferred one, if we assessing Mercedes in F1
all good fun

To make it clear, I don't mind one way or the other, I think both do what they feel necessary to get the results & image they want. None of them are angles.
As N.H. more then once used to say "Touring car racing is a team sport".

I find it just entertaining, and sad in a way,to see to which lengths people will go to make their own favorites look good (better), especially if they feel compelled to sling mud at others (manufacturers, teams etc.) or feel the need to belittle their (others) achievements in things that are totally unrelated to the topic being discussed here.
And it puzzles me even more, that people are handing out "bonus points" for non-technical, off topic comments (such as this one) - seems like the point system isn't working as intended, and is more like buddy buddy "like it" contest.
Anyway - all good fun, I will p... off now, see if their are some technical forums/topics around.
Have fun.

[xpensive]

If Norby the Hut had not been a journo with close connections to AMuS and not had way too much knowledge on how
things really went down back in 2009-2010, I'm certain that DrZ had ditched his substantial corpus a looong time ago.

[marcush.]

Ah .you refer to the bést practise method of lessons learned?

I think there is no sense in backtracking and look for responsibilities and shortcomings of people in a fingerpointing way.in the daimler world there is the word of :reporting difficulties does exempt one from sanctions.. trying to hide creates difficulties.
Not sure if the english self understanding does work very well with this .

Seriously I´m pretty sure Brawn waa well aware what he sold to Daimler and it may well be his svaouring plan was to get michael who did the trick at Benetton and Ferrari against all odds.This time it did not really pan out ,though.
Mercedes clearly had NO idea what they had bought ,nor did Schumacher .So frankly speaking you have to ask yourself on what basis Brawn Fry and Mercedes ,Haug Zetsche and Schumacher are working these days as there must be some serious routes in their relationship and trust .
I´m not entirely sure if it is wise to keep people who have shown behaviour like this ,even though one could put forward Ross had to act like this to make the deal happen .But on the other hand he had no issue to release a lot of important people and strip the company of its work base...but filled his own pockets with serious money ...not that he does not bag a considerable retainer for his current work as well...

[xpensive]

I like the title of this new thread, most inviting to some serious elaborating on how things went down, thanks richard!

This is how I figure;
- Norby the Hut was after more than a decade of being smirked at in the McLaren pit having quite enough of it.
- RB senses this and quietly lets Norby in on this aero-scam, assuring him that he already has the go from MrM.
- Norby supplies the engines in record-time and xplains to DrZ that it's just his gut-feel this is the right thing.
- Brawn GP blitzes the first half of the season and DrZ canonizes Norb and his "gut-feel", everyone is ecstatic.
- Now for the prestige; After mid-season Norby breaks it to DrZ that this team is for sale, at a bargain prize!
- DrZ cannot believe his luck, buying a world-beating team for peanuts and immediately coughs up the dole.

Little did he know.

[Pierce89]

I like the title of this new thread, most inviting to some serious elaborating on how things went down, thanks richard!

This is how I figure;
- Norby the Hut was after more than a decade of being smirked at in the McLaren pit having quite enough of it.
- RB senses this and quietly lets Norby in on this aero-scam, assuring him that he already has the go from MrM.
- Norby supplies the engines in record-time and xplains to DrZ that it's just his gut-feel this is the right thing.
- Brawn GP blitzes the first half of the season and DrZ canonizes Norb and his "gut-feel", everyone is ecstatic.
- Now for the prestige; After mid-season Norby breaks it to DrZ that this team is for sale, at a bargain prize!
- DrZ cannot believe his luck, buying a world-beating team for peanuts and immediately coughs up the dole.

Little did he know.

a perfect synopsis

[NewtonMeter]

I like the title of this new thread, most inviting to some serious elaborating on how things went down, thanks richard!

This is how I figure;
- RB senses this and quietly lets Norby in on this aero-scam, assuring him that he already has the go from MrM.
- Norby supplies the engines in record-time and xplains to DrZ that it's just his gut-feel this is the right thing.

Little did he know.

Just make sure of that, because I remember reading that Brawn initially wanted ferrari engines.

[xpensive]

---
a perfect synopsis

Whenever "MGP-The movie" is made, I hope to see John Goodman or perhaps Robbie Coltrane as Norby, Philip Seymor Hoffman as RB and Donald Sutherland as DrZ, quite obviously featuring Kenneth Branagh in the role of MrM.

Perhaps directed by Quentin Tarantino...naaah?

[SeijaKessen]

I like the title of this new thread, most inviting to some serious elaborating on how things went down, thanks richard!

This is how I figure;
- Norby the Hut was after more than a decade of being smirked at in the McLaren pit having quite enough of it.
- RB senses this and quietly lets Norby in on this aero-scam, assuring him that he already has the go from MrM.
- Norby supplies the engines in record-time and xplains to DrZ that it's just his gut-feel this is the right thing.
- Brawn GP blitzes the first half of the season and DrZ canonizes Norb and his "gut-feel", everyone is ecstatic.
- Now for the prestige; After mid-season Norby breaks it to DrZ that this team is for sale, at a bargain prize!
- DrZ cannot believe his luck, buying a world-beating team for peanuts and immediately coughs up the dole.

Little did he know.

Wow.

I think this sums it up perfectly.

Ross Brawn is the luckiest man on the planet.

[Pierce89]

Wow! The abyss is quite enjoyable. Does that make me a masochist?

[zyphro]

In all honesty, I don't think things have gone to plan for Mercedes. Were they expecting that in their first year they wouldn't even get a P2, and not a single podium (albeit several close shaves) in 2011, and only 1 solitary win in 2012, which so far doesn't look to be increasing?

In all honesty, even if you factored in the instability caused by a restructuring as well as the change of identity, and completely new driver lineup - which I think they would have allowed a bit of leeway for - I don't think they expected to go from the team who dominated the first half of 2009, taking 8 wins and 4 (I think it's 4?) 1-2s to a team having to fight for podiums, and not even regularly at that.

So far in my personal view, while they are winners now, it doesn't really mean much to me in 2012. They won in China and the record books will forever record that Rosberg was quicker and had better tyre life compared to any other car for pole and the race, of that there is no doubt. But in a year where Pastor Maldonado (who albeit is quick) on his day can take a team that was at the back of the 2011 midfield to a victory - that doesn't mean much to me. (ie. to me what they HAVE shown is that Rosberg - Mercedes is at least as good as Maldonado - Williams, not much else).

In my view there is no denying they have quite seriously undershot their own expectations, and definitely mine. These are obviously my personal views, and some will agree with me, some won't. Great. That's what we call freedom of thought.

But rather than talking of the situation as it is; with some taking the side that Mercedes are performing to plan, others saying there is progress, others saying they are behind and there is no saving them - should we not in fact be looking at what HAS gone wrong - and assuming that no conspiracies are existent - talk of how they could move forward?

All this talk of "they're on the up" "no they're not" "yes they are" isn't getting anywhere, and I fail to see how some are not seeing it. What I CAN see is that this team has room to improve, and those areas should really be, in my view, the prevalent topic of conversation here.

There is no use crying over spilt milk (ie talking about things as they are/have been) - but rather, we should look at why that milk spilt, how it was possible, and start cleaning that spill up. Not to mention designing as spill-proof a bottle as possible.

If you've gotten as far as this comment, thanks for listening

Well said! Would +1 if I could (ran out) .

[xpensive]

I wonder how Daimler is making use of that 5th place in the WCC marketing-wise;

"We purchased a winning team and gave it a makeover to become Mercedes, for good measure we began from scratch"?

[bhall]

[...]

- Norby supplies the engines in record-time and xplains to DrZ that it's just his gut-feel this is the right thing.

[...]

To be fair, did Haug really have a choice in the matter? His gut can be very convincing.

[SeijaKessen]

Pictured: Dr. Z coming to the realization that his luck doesn't extend to actually having a successful F1 team.