Ferrari At Le Mans?

[WhiteBlue]

Perhaps so, but 280 M€ would still be a very healthy Formula one budget and give a lot more coverage, why I doubt the number.
I think your own figure of 30 M€ for Toyota is closer to the truth?

I disagree. The same source that reported the Toyota figure gave Audi's budget in LMP1 at over €100m annually. Porsche for startup will logically go higher in order to beat Audi and to catch up.

When you compare with F1 you have to consider that VW/Porsche do not believe they will get value for money. They would probably be prepared to cough up the dough but they are not convinced they will be buying something for it. Look at how Red Bull and the constructors manipulate the engine and energy recovery rules. How could Porsche expect to win if their competency in both fields will not be turned into competitive advantage. They cannot even expect to get a decent pay back via price money because half the F1 profit lands in delta topco's owners coffers.

In LMP1 the research cost goes equally to 33% into aero, engine and recovery and they get competitive advantage from all three fields because there are reasonable restrictions to all of them but no excessive choking of potential performance gains.

Instead of LMP1 manufacturers going into F1 you will probably get a bunch of DTM/DTMA/GT500 manufacturers go from touring cars into both categories - WEC and DTM because the basic engine will be similar. Aero, recovery and chassis weight will be much more demanding in LMP/WEC but there could be a kind of ladder for the best young DTM pilots to go to WEC. Much depends of the TV marketing of WEC in the future. That is the only thing that Ecclestone has always done with the highest skill. No other motor racing series is anywhere close to that kind of global broadcasting coverage.

[xpensive]

Perhaps so, but 280 M€ would still be a very healthy Formula one budget and give a lot more coverage, why I doubt the number.
I think your own figure of 30 M€ for Toyota is closer to the truth?

I disagree. The same source that reported the Toyota figure gave Audi's budget in LMP1 at over €100m annually. Porsche for startup will logically go higher in order to beat Audi and to catch up.
...

When you consider that Audi's annual revenues is more than four times Porsche's, I still believe that 30 M€ is more realistic
than 280 for the latter's engagement in LMP1, trying to out-muscle Audi could prove futile to my mind.

[xpensive]

Either way, I doubt if Ferrari could spend anywhere near 100 MEUR on LMP1 without a serious contribution from somewhere

[WhiteBlue]

Perhaps so, but 280 M€ would still be a very healthy Formula one budget and give a lot more coverage, why I doubt the number.
I think your own figure of 30 M€ for Toyota is closer to the truth?

I disagree. The same source that reported the Toyota figure gave Audi's budget in LMP1 at over €100m annually. Porsche for startup will logically go higher in order to beat Audi and to catch up....

When you consider that Audi's annual revenues is more than four times Porsche's, I still believe that 30 M€ is more realistic
than 280 for the latter's engagement in LMP1, trying to out-muscle Audi could prove futile to my mind.

Revenue is not very useful as a yardstick in this case. I have already posted above how an LMP budget can be shoehorned into an existing business plan. I do not doubt that Porsche had a big budget for the starting years which is even in excess of Audi's €100m+. But I do not believe they would keep that kind of budget up for five years. After an initial investment phase the WEC budget will probably go down a bit to under €200m, which is sustainable I think. Porsche IMO had the ability to generate an F1 type racing budget and considered very seriously to push the button. They - or better Piech - has simply decided that F1 is not the appropriate way. A €30m amateur budget would be unthinkable considering what they do in terms of capital investment and resource allocation.

They are planning for a works team from scratch and not using an existing customer team like Audi did with team Joest. They will spend some serious money just on key personnel like drivers, race engineers, team principal just to name a few. They will have three cars as anything less than Audi standard will not do. They need ten drivers and the recruiting of Webber shows that they are throwing some money at it. I doubt that such a team alone would be available much below €30m if you have to head hunt them away from lucrative occupations and the guys are top notch. And we have not even looked at development cost for an engine and a recovery system that is no inferior to F1. I think you have not thought this through.

There is no way around that Ferrari would have to find similar type of money to compete with the VW group brands, but the real bottle neck would be management IMO. Domenicali is over stretched to run a successful WCC campaign in F1. How is his gestione sportiva going to find the resources to play in another big boy league.

[ESPImperium]

When looking at drivers salaries, Webber is paid €8m a year from Red Bull at present, he also has major incentives like €1m a win with €500,000 a podium and €200,000 for a points placed finish and €250,000 for pole and fastest lap. With Porsche it is expected that a €12m base pay with €6m for a Le Mans win per car and €1.5m per WEC race win per car. So Webber will be remunerated well.

The Audi drivers have all got the same contract seemingly, €9m a year with a €9m bonus per car for a overall win per car and €3m per WEC race. Hence why they go all out to win Le Mans do Audi. Even Audis Test Driver is paid better than some F1 drivers.

When you take 9 drivers on €9m and a TD on €5m, thats €86m before bonuses. However we seldom are let into that world, so it would be a summary and not a decent appraisal there.

Sportscar drivers can get paid really really well if you are good enough and can endure the sport, or if you realize that F1 is past you early enough, you can forge a career of 20 years or more in Le Mans, dare i mention Tom Kristiensens name?

Having done a bit of digging, Audi now spend €400m on their entire motorsport network with €240m spent on LMP racing and €80m on DTM and €40m on all other forms like the FIA GT3 series, however the DTM series is helped out via sponsorship on each car and such. The FIA GT3 series are all customer cars, but Audi support them by sending here and there. The last €40m is on R&D costs for all forms but LMP.

I think Ferrari, with a decent commercial package, could do a LMP attack with the F1 team doping its own thing as well on a budget of €300m a year for the F1 side, Ferrari could invest €100m into LMP racing if not less. And would be a great thing for the likes of Massa and Kamui to race in.

However, id like to see LMP1 run with four credible 3-car teams at Le Mans and 2 cars at all other WEC races with all privateers doing 2 cars at Le Mans and a single car at all other WEC events. Ideally 20 LMP1 cars, 15 LMP2, 12 GT class and the rest being the Grand Am class thats coming in 2015 as well for 55 main entries and the single 56th garrage for new tech as well.

[xpensive]

...
Revenue is not very useful as a yardstick in this case.
...

Oh but I believe it is, Porsche spending the equivalent of 3% of their revenues, when Audi perhaps is at 0.4%, is not realistic.

[Richard]

Of course Porsche and Audi now have common ownership.

ESP - are there any sources for those numbers? Ideally company accounts if these teams are set up as their corporate identities.

[timbo]

The Audi drivers have all got the same contract seemingly, €9m a year with a €9m bonus per car for a overall win per car and €3m per WEC race. Hence why they go all out to win Le Mans do Audi. Even Audis Test Driver is paid better than some F1 drivers.

Hmm, I dunno, they can have cream of crop for that much money, why they race with ones they do?

[xpensive]

9 M€ per driver, no wonder the inflated budget, guess Webber is about to get a payraise, why don't the entire F1 grid go LMP1?

[timbo]

9 M€ per driver, no wonder the inflated budget, guess Webber is about to get a payraise, why don't the entire F1 grid go LMP1?

Well, I guess Alonso, Hamilton, possibly Vettel and Button get more, but I wonder why there's so little hunt for young drivers like Bottas or Hulkenberg? Why Kovalainen is not there?

[xpensive]

9 M€ per driver, no wonder the inflated budget, guess Webber is about to get a payraise, why don't the entire F1 grid go LMP1?

Well, I guess Alonso, Hamilton, possibly Vettel and Button get more, but I wonder why there's so little hunt for young drivers like Bottas or Hulkenberg? Why Kovalainen is not there?

I'm a strong believer in market economy, why I simply don't believe that anyone would pay Formula 1 rejects like Marc Gene and Alan McNish 9 M€ per season to drive anything. Perhaps a tenth of that but hardly more, let alone the no-names driving Audi.

[timbo]

9 M€ per driver, no wonder the inflated budget, guess Webber is about to get a payraise, why don't the entire F1 grid go LMP1?

Well, I guess Alonso, Hamilton, possibly Vettel and Button get more, but I wonder why there's so little hunt for young drivers like Bottas or Hulkenberg? Why Kovalainen is not there?

I'm a strong believer in market economy, why I simply don't believe that anyone would pay Formula 1 rejects like Marc Gene and Alan McNish 9 M€ per season to drive anything. Perhaps a tenth of that but hardly more, let alone the no-names driving Audi.

Well yeah, especially that Gene is also a tester/promo driver at Ferrari. It's hard to imagine paying that much money and have a driver work for somebody else.

[Emerson.F]

Found these Conceptpics. I dont know if its legit though.

Edit: It seems its P4/5 LMP1 class by Glickenhaus

[xpensive]

I'm beginning i believe that we should take one digit off ESP's numbers to get closer to the money involved in LMP1?

[timbo]

I'm beginning i believe that we should take one digit off ESP's numbers to get closer to the money involved in LMP1?

Well, as far as driver fees go, I think, yeah. But the overall budget is closer to 100Mil I think. I can believe in it being in 100-150 range, but 280 seems outlandish to me.