2017 Williams Martini Racing Team - Mercedes

[Sevach]

http://globoesporte.globo.com/motor/for ... uieto.html

Officially Felipe is denying.

[Manoah2u]

The Brazilian driver says that there is still nothing official about returning to Formula 1. Italian TV says Felipe already signed a contract for next season

On Tuesday morning, TV Sky Sports Italia reported through their social networks that the Brazilian already has a contract signed with the English team to replace the Finn Valtteri Bottas in 2017. According to the Italians, Bottas would be leaving for Mercedes, where he would take over the vacancy left by current world champion Nico Rosberg, who announced his Formula One retirement earlier this month. In Brazil, by phone, Felipe Massa reacted with surprise to the news

"I have nothing to say, man. That's what they're talking about. I'm quiet on the matter, I do not wish to participate in it.
Everything that has been going on so far is nothing official, " he said.

According to Italian TV, Felipe signed a six million euro ($ 20 million) contract with the British team last Monday to compete for the 2017 season. What is understood is that his contract has a Clause that annuls its return if the contracting of Bottas by the Mercedes does not materialize

hmmmm.

[bill shoe]

It sounds like Merc and Williams have lined up all their ducks, but the one party that would still need to agree is Lance Stroll's father. If he agrees Massa is equivalent to Bottas (per Lance's contract) then Bottas is off to Mercedes.

I think Bottas and Massa are not equivalent, because Massa was 0.15 seconds slower in qualy during 2016, and he's older than Bottas so that gap can be expected to increase a bit each subsequent year. The midfield fight will be brutal in 2017, so 0.15 seconds per lap definitely translates into lots of constructors points. Really, if Massa was equivalent to Bottas then Mercedes would be signing Massa, right?

The tough thing for Williams and Mercedes is that Stroll's father basically can't be bought, he doesn't need anyone's buyout of a few million dollars. So money probably won't sway him, and he will either agree or not based on what he thinks is best for son Stroll's career.

As a Williams fan I have huge respect for Massa, but damn I don't want their fastest car to lose 0.15 seconds per lap before the season begins. Maybe Williams is nominally playing ball to satisfy engine partner Mercedes while hoping (recommending in deep, dark private conversations?) that Lance Stroll's father will not accept the change.

[Sevach]

I think Felipe was a lot closer to Bottas in 2014 (performance wise, Felipe had some bad luck that extended the points lead more than it should've been) and 2015 than he was in 2016, is that because he's over the hill? Or just lost motivation when he understood the car wasn't podium worthy and he wouldn't have a seat for the next season?

Either way Williams looses in this, Bottas has always been superior to Massa, either by very little like in 2015 or by a lot like in 2016...

As far as Stroll is concerned, i think he should be happy with Massa, a defeat here(specially if it's because Massa got some good race results while Stroll is faster in general) won't be career destroying, it will be seen as normal.
And if Felipe truly is a bit over the hill, Stroll should have an easy path to beating him and make something of a name for himself by outperforming a highly experienced former championship challenger.

Daddy's only concern should be a guy like Wehrlein, getting trounced (not that i think it would happen) by a young gun is what can make people ask the question:
"It's a lot of money... but is it worth it when the guy just isn't good enough?"

[ringo]

Speed is not a concern in Massa's case. It's knowledge and Massa has way more than Bottas. Secondly I think on their best days Massa is the faster qualifier. He also speaks more, so should be the better teacher for young Stroll.
Its probably better for stroll if massa is slower than Bottas as well. That's more motivation if he can go neck and neck with Massa.

[ME4ME]

Speed is not a concern in Massa's case. It's knowledge and Massa has way more than Bottas. Secondly I think on their best days Massa is the faster qualifier. He also speaks more, so should be the better teacher for young Stroll.
Its probably better for stroll if massa is slower than Bottas as well. That's more motivation if he can go neck and neck with Massa.

Lots of statements there, but i'm not sure if I agree with any of them.

What do you actually mean by Massa being more knowledgeable? More experience, more intelligent, knows more about F1 cars and setup? Whatever it is it's not enough to beat Bottas. I'd say that additional experience beyond 3-4 years is increasinly irrelevant.

Only being quick on the "best day" is also irrelevant. Maldonado was quick on his best day. Webber too. A driver needs to be better than that, more consistent to score the maximum amount of points over a season.

Massa speaks more? What about the quality of the things being said?
Felipe might be a likeable person, but over the last couple of years he come out with plenty of emotionally loaded senseless statements.

I don't know about Stroll and what is better for him. I'm sure in time he will be asked and be given the chance to comment on that himself. As for Williams, whatever the financial benefits might be, it's a clear downgrade in driver quality.

[Nickel]

Schumacher was faster than Barrichello however Barrichello was great at setting up a car. I've never heard anyone say this about Massa but this is where experience beyond 3-4 years can really show through even if we-the-public don't get to see it.

In this way, it's possible Massa could be a better person to learn from than Bottas.

possible =/= probable.

[Stalker1]

When I read that Massa found motivation for another full season, I was suprised. I did not realise before, that his decision to retire came from Williams not willing to sign another contract and all the other seats not available for him. I also did not realise before that he is the best option available at the moment for Williams, because all the other options have already vanished.

I personally think that as Bottas seems to be more methododical in his approach, it would have been better for Stroll to partner with him than Massa.

[Manoah2u]

Just a reminder, Massa too applied for the Mercedes seat.

and yes, i think it was clear enough that Massa retired because Williams 'had to have' Strollmoney.
What i actually expected was to see Massa go to Renault, but then again, i also could imagine Massa not infinitely wanting to end up in
a merry-go-round of being second fiddle and only a 'setter upper' for struggling teams to be ditched when the team gets up steam.
he risks becoming a barrichello 2.0 and 'lost'. a bit like Button, and frankly, though i do think Felipe is a bit whiny, he deserved better than that,
as did Rubens and Jenson.
But the latter stayed in F1 too long on their own decision, though i can imagine getting paid loads of millions and still enjoy driving around a f1 car
is not really punishment at all.

[Stalker1]

I agree with you that Massa deserved better than just dumped for money! In this season, his form and motivation went down only in mid-season, when he probably realised Stroll will take his place. It really did make sense for Williams up until the retirement of Rosberg - they needed Bottas and they also needed money.

[bill shoe]

There is genuinely such a thing as a "setup" driver who can identify vehicle dynamics shortcocmings to engineers as opposed to simply driving around them. Kimi Raikkonen is the best example I know of. He hounded Renault for a full season or two to improve their power steering and when they eventually did it was undoubtedly better for all subsequent drivers. Then at Ferrari he was getting his ass handed to him by Alonso in every qualy session and race, but Ferrari kept Raikkonen because he identified the handling problems to James Allison so they could be fixed for the next year's car. Alonso only had the ability and/or interest to drive around the problem, it's counter-intuitive but this is easier than identifying the problems. Overall, a combination of a picky technical-minded driver like Raikkonen and a pragmatic 10/10ths stormer like Alonso is pretty good.

But still think Bottas is clearly better for Williams from an overall driver point of view.

[Stalker1]

Massas best seasons were either with Raikonen or Bottas as an teammate, which for me shows that Bottas could be also the setup style driver.

[Sevach]

Massa originally didn't intend to retire, he wanted another year, once he understood Williams wouldn't re-sign him, he was calm and showed no resentment.
To the brazilian press he said he understood Williams decision, and that they treated him with a lot of respect (aka he knew about it for a long time).
The only team he thought was worth talking to was Renault, when Renault didn't show interest he decided to retire.


I do think Williams loses something by trading Bottas for Massa, Bottas beat him for 3 years running afterall, but last season's "bad" performance might've been motivation as has been pointed out.

I also think there's some merit to the notion that Massa can be a good teacher to Stroll, which probably is more beneficial to Williams long term than having a fast guy on the other car who wouldn't care, since i believe the Stroll-Williams connection is poised to continue for a relatively long time.

[rich1701]

It's interesting Williams overlooked Paul Di Resta. He is part of that team. Personally i would much rather have him in the car than Massa. Massa is not consistent enough and lacks race craft these days It's a business decision and not a racing one to keep Massa. It has been claimed that Martini want Massa because of his marketability particularly in Brazil and his age, two young guns wouldn't work for them. and i suspect keeping Massa would have saved Williams money in contractual terms as I suspect his results over the last 3 years activated a performance clause which is why they didn't renew it in the first place.

[Stalker1]

Although I do not watch BBC Sport closely anymore since they sacked Gary Anderson, I found the following article from them:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/38335169

An outtake:

Wolff's first offer to Williams for Bottas was for a reduction of 10m euros (£8.4m) in their engine bill.

It is considered likely that Williams will hold out for a figure much closer to the full amount - 17m euros (£14.2m) - to release the driver.

They are aware that Mercedes have money available for the deal because they no longer have to fund Rosberg's salary - which was set to be in the region of $22m (£17.6m) for each of the next two years.