2017 F1 T Wing

[oetger]

[SiLo]

Hope mods don't mind, but someone on reddit did a very dirty comparison between T wing, T wing + Sharkfin, Sharkfin, and Neither with some basic numbers for downforce and drag levels. Link can be found here

It's quite an interesting read (take with huge pinch of salt). It does not take into account airflow off the front wing, just a free stream of air.

[Huntresa]

Haas might not be able to run its T-wing cause of its flexing, moving to much under load/bumps.

[Vyssion]

(take with huge pinch of salt). It does not take into account airflow off the front wing, just a free stream of air.

Preface; I mean this in the nicest way possible to these people who did this "work"

Definitely agree with you here mate.

Id be cautious taking these results as anything other than the OP wanted to muck about... The designs for the aerofoils are nothing like typical race car aerofoils, the geometry in and of itself is simplistic at best, there is no accounting for any flow upstream of the wing (which true, they acknowledge), but there is in reality a massive object in front of the underside of the wing - a car... Which will affect the nice laminar flow that the streamlines show going under the wing... There is flow separation which the OP assumes is due to the T-wing and not the aerofoil design they have come up with... They are solving in solidworks flow sim which (in my experience) cannot "really" be used as anything more than "this is what one may expect the air to do"... Certainly not take the numbers it spits out as definitive... There is no mention of any mesh, domain or prism layer sensitivity studies, nor any details of turbulence equations, desired y+ values, etc etc... Even little things about how aero works like the OP says that you want as much high pressure air on top of the wing to generate downforce when in reality, it is more effective to try and reduce the pressure on the suction side of the aerofoil to increase the pressure differential and generate your downforce... (I'm getting carried away now sorry! )

I was actually sent the post on the Haas wing which the OP references as the person they want to pay homage to by a team mate who thought it was a huge laugh...
As a professional aerodynamicist myself, it was... frustrating... to see someone who clearly has no idea what they are talking about being praised for such "high quality" work, and me knowing that the readers of these types of posts will walk away thinking they have learnt something, when really, they are worse off for it...

[miqi23]

Care to explain what does it do then and how it's meant to work?

[Vyssion]

Care to explain what does it do then and how it's meant to work?

Page 2, Post #3

Now that I've seen the Williams version, I submit that T-wings reduce downforce coefficient at high speeds.

Ooooooooh!!!! I didnt see the little T wing there underneath!!! Yeah I would have to agree with you on what they do now I see that

Basically it will act as a flow conditioner for the rear wing... There might be some small amount of downforce produced by it, but very little given its size... It will generate two (at least) vortices (viewed from the back of the F1 car) which will rotate clockwise on the right and anticlockwise on the left, essentially directing the air onto the pressure surface of the wing; assuming the speed of the car and the shear interactions from the flow below it, when the car is on the straight, don't overpower it... If that happens, then you will get a type of vortex "sealing" effect where the rear wing's downforce, and by extension drag, will decrease at very high speeds.


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In other news, I'm slowly cleaning up the Perrin F1 car model I mentioned I had... My OCD is getting the better of me though

Bhall, Vyssion, or anyone else ok with just a RW, shark fin and t-wing? I know its simplified but not overly wanting to model a full 2017 car to just get a general idea of whats going on.

[miqi23]

Basically it will act as a flow conditioner for the rear wing... There might be some small amount of downforce produced by it, but very little given its size... It will generate two (at least) vortices (viewed from the back of the F1 car) which will rotate clockwise on the right and anticlockwise on the left, essentially directing the air onto the pressure surface of the wing; assuming the speed of the car and the shear interactions from the flow below it, when the car is on the straight, don't overpower it... If that happens, then you will get a type of vortex "sealing" effect where the rear wing's downforce, and by extension drag, will decrease at very high speeds.

So, basically, you are saying that it will reduce rear wing down-force and drag at very high speeds and not low speeds?

[dren]

The announcers on NBCSports were saying they were told the t-wings are nothing more than downforce producing wings, they aren't there to help the rear wing.

[Pierce89]

The announcers on NBCSports were saying they were told the t-wings are nothing more than downforce producing wings, they aren't there to help the rear wing.

This. It's efficient downforce because of the extreme aspect ratio.

[RicME85]

Pat Symonds said the same on Sky

[jimclark]

The announcers on NBCSports were saying they were told the t-wings are nothing more than downforce producing wings, they aren't there to help the rear wing.

I heard it also. However, many years ago, my older sister taught me to "Believe none of what you hear, and, only half of what you see." Through the years, I've found it to be valuable advice. We shall find out eventually.

[PhillipM]

Yes, however, it makes sense when you look at the relative positions, they've been setup deliberately not to create strong vortices, and in any case it's so high they would be clear of the rear wing especially given the massive upwash at the rear of the car.

[Enstone]

We don't know exactly how many tenths this t-wing bring to the teams... but Haas who had to take it off during FP2 (due to safety reasons), says that've lost few tenths without it, and were quite to happy to have him back during qualifications !

[henra]

They have a bigger aspect ratio than any airliner and probably bigger than most gliders, so they are very efficient in terms of Cl/Cd. My opinion is that they are used to create some amount of downforce big enough to reduce rear wing AoA just enough to reduce its drag even more.

Agreed on both aspects.
Let's do a little SWAG analysis.
Wing area: 0,75m x 0,05m.
Ca: ~1,5.
F= Rho/2 x Ca x A x V^2.
=> At 250km/h: Downforce = 160N = ~16kg. Which means about 1 percent Df increase.
L/D ratio of such a high aspect wing at higher speeds (Re >2*10^5) should be >(>)20. => Drag <10N. At 250km/h this would require ~0,9 HP. => Totally negligible.
=> Low hanging fruit of small Downforce gain for almost no drag. Possibly flow optimisation and probably slight AoA decrease for rear wing.

[bigbump]

Made an account to post this.

Looks to me like T wings are there simply to maintain low speed downforce from the rear wing. Similar to the old mustaches and trailing extensions on experimental aircraft. Fit all the descriptions, including locations. Something to think about.

Low drag helper to maintain low speed -L. Old design with a novel use.