2022 budget cap violations

[Cs98]

Wouldnt surprise me if it was mostly UK based teams because of inflation, energy and shipping costs etc.

Everyone except Ferrari then?

Aren't AT based in Faenza?

Considering Toto is a finance guy, it would surprise me if Mercedes breach the cap. Aston and McLaren would be my guesses.

Because "finance guys" never commit accounting fraud...

Nah, but seriously, doubt it's Merc too.

[Just_a_fan]

.
I would say disqualify them for ever!!

I think he's being facetious.

However, would you agree that breaching the cost cap two years in a row, especially when the team doing it is significantly quicker than all the others (which might be because they breached the cost cap), needs something more than just a light slap on the wrists? A fine of a few million dollars sounds a lot to you and me but to a rich team it's small change.

A meaningful penalty is required or the cost cap should just be forgotten about and we go back to "spend what you can afford".

Red Bull is doing well because of cost cap breach is nonsense. There is no doubt they did a better job than others.

I am sure you wouldn't agree for a stronger punishment for Lewis in Silverstone 2021 for causing massive damage to Max's car, beyond what the governing framework rules that doesn't take into account the effect, but just the cause. But then Lewis' error forced loss of components and subsequent penalty for Max of using extra engine. If effect is not considered then, why in case of cost cap breach?

Other teams made comment about how the amount RBR overspent would bring significant upgrades during a season. Not unreasonable to assume that spending it upfront would give a head start.

But, true, RBR did do a better job however they managed it.

Well, Silverstone was avoidable by either driver so it's an odd example. But assuming, as you appear to, that it was all Lewis's fault, I would have expected him to have been given a harsher penalty if he'd done the same thing at the next race.

[Cs98]

Here's an estimate of repair costs for 2022 by driver and team done by somebody on reddit. I don't expect the values to be precisely correct but they use a standard cost per part and apply it to all repairs, so it should give us a rough estimate.

https://i.redd.it/world-destructor-cham ... 064872266d

2022 estimated team repair costs:
Williams - $4.7M
Haas - $4.5M
Aston Martin - $4.3M
Ferrari - $4.1M
Mercedes - $4.0M
Alpine - $3.5M
Alfa Romeo - $3.4M
Alpha Tauri - $2.5M
Red Bull - $1.6M
McLaren - $1.5M

AM, Merc, and Ferrari are all around $2.5M more than RB, Alpine is about $2.0M more than RB. McLaren right in line with RB. If inflation ate up a lot of the buffer teams had in their budget maybe higher repair costs could put them over the limit?

Just another thing to consider along with upgrades that were brought during the 2022 season.

You have it for 2021 too? Just to compare and contrast.

[Sieper]

I think he's being facetious.

However, would you agree that breaching the cost cap two years in a row, especially when the team doing it is significantly quicker than all the others (which might be because they breached the cost cap), needs something more than just a light slap on the wrists? A fine of a few million dollars sounds a lot to you and me but to a rich team it's small change.

A meaningful penalty is required or the cost cap should just be forgotten about and we go back to "spend what you can afford".

Red Bull is doing well because of cost cap breach is nonsense. There is no doubt they did a better job than others.

I am sure you wouldn't agree for a stronger punishment for Lewis in Silverstone 2021 for causing massive damage to Max's car, beyond what the governing framework rules that doesn't take into account the effect, but just the cause. But then Lewis' error forced loss of components and subsequent penalty for Max of using extra engine. If effect is not considered then, why in case of cost cap breach?

Other teams made comment about how the amount RBR overspent would bring significant upgrades during a season. Not unreasonable to assume that spending it upfront would give a head start.

But, true, RBR did do a better job however they managed it.

Well, Silverstone was avoidable by either driver so it's an odd example. But assuming, as you appear to, that it was all Lewis's fault, I would have expected him to have been given a harsher penalty if he'd done the same thing at the next race.

No. That was Bottas.

[Just_a_fan]

I would say disqualify them for ever!!

.
I think he's being facetious.

However, would you agree that breaching the cost cap two years in a row, especially when the team doing it is significantly quicker than all the others (which might be because they breached the cost cap), needs something more than just a light slap on the wrists? A fine of a few million dollars sounds a lot to you and me but to a rich team it's small change.

A meaningful penalty is required or the cost cap should just be forgotten about and we go back to "spend what you can afford".

.
Now that I read it again I think @Willy is indeed being sarcastic. Stupid me.
I will not argue with you about the BC because I know how you as a Mercedes/Lewis fan feel about RBR and their violation of the BC.
"... a light slap on the wrists." and ".... especially when the team doing it is significantly quicker than all the others (which might be because they breached the cost cap)."

Ignore assumed team loyalties. Should any team that repeatedly overspends on the budget cap be given a larger penalty for subsequent breaches? Or should the same punishment be given to them each time?

Would a repeated punishment help to enforce the cap or would it lead to rich teams all breaching the cap by similar amounts every year because they could afford the small fine issued?

When one looks at the wider world, one sees a general principle in law that repeat offenders get treated more harshly than first time offenders. Should that principle apply to F1?

[Cs98]

Here's an estimate of repair costs for 2022 by driver and team done by somebody on reddit. I don't expect the values to be precisely correct but they use a standard cost per part and apply it to all repairs, so it should give us a rough estimate.

https://i.redd.it/world-destructor-cham ... 064872266d

2022 estimated team repair costs:
Williams - $4.7M
Haas - $4.5M
Aston Martin - $4.3M
Ferrari - $4.1M
Mercedes - $4.0M
Alpine - $3.5M
Alfa Romeo - $3.4M
Alpha Tauri - $2.5M
Red Bull - $1.6M
McLaren - $1.5M

AM, Merc, and Ferrari are all around $2.5M more than RB, Alpine is about $2.0M more than RB. McLaren right in line with RB. If inflation ate up a lot of the buffer teams had in their budget maybe higher repair costs could put them over the limit?

Just another thing to consider along with upgrades that were brought during the 2022 season.

You have it for 2021 too? Just to compare and contrast.

https://i.redd.it/1p3q3j6fdb581.png

[Big Tea]

.
I think he's being facetious.

However, would you agree that breaching the cost cap two years in a row, especially when the team doing it is significantly quicker than all the others (which might be because they breached the cost cap), needs something more than just a light slap on the wrists? A fine of a few million dollars sounds a lot to you and me but to a rich team it's small change.

A meaningful penalty is required or the cost cap should just be forgotten about and we go back to "spend what you can afford".

.
Now that I read it again I think @Willy is indeed being sarcastic. Stupid me.
I will not argue with you about the BC because I know how you as a Mercedes/Lewis fan feel about RBR and their violation of the BC.
"... a light slap on the wrists." and ".... especially when the team doing it is significantly quicker than all the others (which might be because they breached the cost cap)."

Ignore assumed team loyalties. Should any team that repeatedly overspends on the budget cap be given a larger penalty for subsequent breaches? Or should the same punishment be given to them each time?

Would a repeated punishment help to enforce the cap or would it lead to rich teams all breaching the cap by similar amounts every year because they could afford the small fine issued?

When one looks at the wider world, one sees a general principle in law that repeat offenders get treated more harshly than first time offenders. Should that principle apply to F1?

To be effective, the 'fine' would need to come out of the cost cap so that it becomes compounded damage as well as compounded advantage.

[Just_a_fan]

Red Bull is doing well because of cost cap breach is nonsense. There is no doubt they did a better job than others.

I am sure you wouldn't agree for a stronger punishment for Lewis in Silverstone 2021 for causing massive damage to Max's car, beyond what the governing framework rules that doesn't take into account the effect, but just the cause. But then Lewis' error forced loss of components and subsequent penalty for Max of using extra engine. If effect is not considered then, why in case of cost cap breach?

Other teams made comment about how the amount RBR overspent would bring significant upgrades during a season. Not unreasonable to assume that spending it upfront would give a head start.

But, true, RBR did do a better job however they managed it.

Well, Silverstone was avoidable by either driver so it's an odd example. But assuming, as you appear to, that it was all Lewis's fault, I would have expected him to have been given a harsher penalty if he'd done the same thing at the next race.

No. That was Bottas.

When did Bottas hit Verstappen? I think you'll find it was Norris that hit Verstappen...

[Just_a_fan]

.
Now that I read it again I think @Willy is indeed being sarcastic. Stupid me.
I will not argue with you about the BC because I know how you as a Mercedes/Lewis fan feel about RBR and their violation of the BC.
"... a light slap on the wrists." and ".... especially when the team doing it is significantly quicker than all the others (which might be because they breached the cost cap)."

Ignore assumed team loyalties. Should any team that repeatedly overspends on the budget cap be given a larger penalty for subsequent breaches? Or should the same punishment be given to them each time?

Would a repeated punishment help to enforce the cap or would it lead to rich teams all breaching the cap by similar amounts every year because they could afford the small fine issued?

When one looks at the wider world, one sees a general principle in law that repeat offenders get treated more harshly than first time offenders. Should that principle apply to F1?

To be effective, the 'fine' would need to come out of the cost cap so that it becomes compounded damage as well as compounded advantage.

Yes, excellent point. Any fine that doesn't affect the team's ability to develop the car is pointless.

[rbirules]

Here's an estimate of repair costs for 2022 by driver and team done by somebody on reddit. I don't expect the values to be precisely correct but they use a standard cost per part and apply it to all repairs, so it should give us a rough estimate.



2022 estimated team repair costs:
Williams - $4.7M
Haas - $4.5M
Aston Martin - $4.3M
Ferrari - $4.1M
Mercedes - $4.0M
Alpine - $3.5M
Alfa Romeo - $3.4M
Alpha Tauri - $2.5M
Red Bull - $1.6M
McLaren - $1.5M

AM, Merc, and Ferrari are all around $2.5M more than RB, Alpine is about $2.0M more than RB. McLaren right in line with RB. If inflation ate up a lot of the buffer teams had in their budget maybe higher repair costs could put them over the limit?

Just another thing to consider along with upgrades that were brought during the 2022 season.

You have it for 2021 too? Just to compare and contrast.

Here you go . . .



2021 estimated team repair costs:
Haas - $7.7M
Ferrari - $6.6M
Williams - $5.6M
Red Bull - $5.5M
Mercedes - $4.7M
Alpha Tauri - $4.5M
Aston Martin - $4.0M
Alfa Romeo - $3.3M
McLaren - $2.7M
Alpine - $0.9M

RB $4M less, Merc $0.7M less, Ferrari $2.5M less, AM $0.3M more, Alpine $2.6M more, McLaren $1.2M less.

[chrisc90]

Other teams made comment about how the amount RBR overspent would bring significant upgrades during a season. Not unreasonable to assume that spending it upfront would give a head start.

But, true, RBR did do a better job however they managed it.

Well, Silverstone was avoidable by either driver so it's an odd example. But assuming, as you appear to, that it was all Lewis's fault, I would have expected him to have been given a harsher penalty if he'd done the same thing at the next race.

No. That was Bottas.

When did Bottas hit Verstappen? I think you'll find it was Norris that hit Verstappen...

Didn’t bottas go bowling with the red bulls in Hungary? Wiped them both out.

Either way - pointless having the 2021 debate in terms of crashes/ what cost etc or who’s fault it was. No relevance here for the 2022 discussion.

[Just_a_fan]

Here's an estimate of repair costs for 2022 by driver and team done by somebody on reddit. I don't expect the values to be precisely correct but they use a standard cost per part and apply it to all repairs, so it should give us a rough estimate.

https://i.redd.it/world-destructor-cham ... 064872266d

2022 estimated team repair costs:
Williams - $4.7M
Haas - $4.5M
Aston Martin - $4.3M
Ferrari - $4.1M
Mercedes - $4.0M
Alpine - $3.5M
Alfa Romeo - $3.4M
Alpha Tauri - $2.5M
Red Bull - $1.6M
McLaren - $1.5M

AM, Merc, and Ferrari are all around $2.5M more than RB, Alpine is about $2.0M more than RB. McLaren right in line with RB. If inflation ate up a lot of the buffer teams had in their budget maybe higher repair costs could put them over the limit?

Just another thing to consider along with upgrades that were brought during the 2022 season.

You have it for 2021 too? Just to compare and contrast.

https://i.redd.it/1p3q3j6fdb581.png
https://i.redd.it/1p3q3j6fdb581.png

In 2021, Mercedes didn't take part in a tyre test because the cost of the Bottas / Russell accident was so high that even with the allowance made to the teams for the test, Mercedes were worried about going over the cap.

[Just_a_fan]

No. That was Bottas.

When did Bottas hit Verstappen? I think you'll find it was Norris that hit Verstappen...

Didn’t bottas go bowling with the red bulls in Hungary? Wiped them both out.

Either way - pointless having the 2021 debate in terms of crashes/ what cost etc or who’s fault it was. No relevance here for the 2022 discussion.

He hit Norris and then Perez. Norris hit Verstappen. Bottas put his hand up and apologised for messing up so many people's races.

But yes, agreed, the crashes of '21 aren't relevant to the '22 cap debate (unless they happened late enough in the year to affect the 22 car's delivery, suppose. Did any?)

[Sieper]

Other teams made comment about how the amount RBR overspent would bring significant upgrades during a season. Not unreasonable to assume that spending it upfront would give a head start.

But, true, RBR did do a better job however they managed it.

Well, Silverstone was avoidable by either driver so it's an odd example. But assuming, as you appear to, that it was all Lewis's fault, I would have expected him to have been given a harsher penalty if he'd done the same thing at the next race.

No. That was Bottas.

When did Bottas hit Verstappen? I think you'll find it was Norris that hit Verstappen...

Nice save

[Cs98]

When did Bottas hit Verstappen? I think you'll find it was Norris that hit Verstappen...

Didn’t bottas go bowling with the red bulls in Hungary? Wiped them both out.

Either way - pointless having the 2021 debate in terms of crashes/ what cost etc or who’s fault it was. No relevance here for the 2022 discussion.

He hit Norris and then Perez. Norris hit Verstappen. Bottas put his hand up and apologised for messing up so many people's races.

But yes, agreed, the crashes of '21 aren't relevant to the '22 cap debate (unless they happened late enough in the year to affect the 22 car's delivery, suppose. Did any?)

They are only relevant for measuring crash damage relative to 22.