Belgium 2008 GP - Court of Appeal Thread

[Sawtooth-spike]

easy answer to all of the above.

Money

Thats the pesmistic answer.

i watch cus i hope that i am wrong sometimes

[gcdugas]

Or do you also think the US secret services were behind 9/11 and Pearl Harbour, that a UFO really crashed in Roswell, that the NY sewage system is full of crocodiles and Elvis still lives?

It was the CIA, not the secret service who operated remote control plane on 911. You forgot about LBJ and Nixon together with George Bush Sr. that killed Kennedy. Roswell is real and Dennis Kucinnich got to ride on the UFO where he saw the little green men genetically engineer David Bowie from alien spawn. Elvis and Jim Morrison have been playing in a pub on the outskirts of Amsterdam for the last dozen years after they hooked up in Paris. Max Mosley and the FIA are impartial.

[donskar]

I respectfully suggest we rename this thread:

"Ferrari is responsible for all evil in the world (including obesity, thinning hair, global warming, and flat beer), along with their running dog lackey lickspittle minion FIA."

That way the rabidly anti-Ferrari/anti-FIA paranoid conspiracy tribe can spew their vitriol in just one place without polluting other threads.

I fully support your right to say ANYTHING you want within the limits set by the moderator, but it is so boring to come here looking for some substance, some reasoned arguments, and find only the same old, same old.

Is McLaren/Hamilton being treated fairly? NO. I think the situation is bad for F1, but I understand it.

Hey guys! McLaren was tried last year and found guilty of some serious offenses. They confessed, apologized, and paid their fine. They are subconsciously "marked" by the FIA and its personnel as a team that cannot be trusted. They WILL be watched more closely than the other teams. They can expect no slack, no leniency, no quarter. Fair? NO. Understandable human/organizational reaction on the part of the FIA and its personnel? YES.

Look, a person lies ONCE to us or steals ONCE from us and we subconsciously mark them as a "liar" or "thief" -- which connotes a person who lies and/or steals regularly not just once. Fair? NO. Understandable human reaction? YES. That is where Mclaren is. They have "paid their debt to society," but they are still an "ex-con."

To the rest of the wailing: Ferrari runs illegal engines, illegal body work, unfair tires, android drivers, and controls the weather through their pact with the devil . . .
Ferrari DOES receive more "slack" than the other teams. YES, they get away with more. If you really follow F1 you know why: Ferrari has worked hard, spent lots of money, hired and developed brilliant people, politicked like crazy, bent and broken the rules whenever they can, and done everything possible to attain a position of primacy in F1. Just like every other successful F1 team - only more successfully.

Result: they are the most powerful/influential/visible team in F1. They are the top dog and so far they are holding on to that position, despite the best and worst efforts of MANY giants: McLaren, Mercedes, BMW, Honda, Renault, Toyota, etc, etc.

News Flash: F1 is more and less than a sport - it's also VERY big business. "Sporting" rules alone do NOT apply in this game.

Enzo's team is a lot like him - not good, but great. Bring it on.

Rant over.

[donskar]

To all people moaning about the FIA conspiring in favour of the red team. To all the people who are convinced this has been going on for years and years. To all the people who think F1 is rotten, dead, sold out. One simple question: If you are so convinced, why keep bothering? If you really believe the things you say, why do FIA a favour and keep following F1? Why keep having it their way? No, really? Do you think McLaren, Mercedes, BMW, Renault and so on would keep spending millions to compete in a championship they know they are never going to win because the organiser conspires against them? Do you think if all the conspiracy theories were true all the people mostly affected by that fact (ie Team Owners and Managers, Constructors, Drivers) would even bother? Would you risk for life as a Driver every weekend to fight a battle you cannot win? Or do you think F1 would survive if all other teams retired and only Ferrari was left racing? Could you please explain at least how come Ferrari spent around 20 years in the dark before regaining the throne since the FIA has been favouring them since time immemorial?
Or do you also think the US secret services were behind 9/11 and Pearl Harbour, that a UFO really crashed in Roswell, that the NY sewage system is full of crocodiles and Elvis still lives?

Bravo andortop. Well done. Keep it up.

[andartop]

easy answer to all of the above.

Money

Thats the pesmistic answer.

i watch cus i hope that i am wrong sometimes

I expected an answer from the people who are so "certain" about things. If you can accept (or even hope) that you might be wrong, I absolutely respect your opinion. So, if the answer is "money", then all the others are in the same $*it as Ferrari and FIA, as they are obviously all into it just for the money and nothing more than that. Case closed!

[Rob W]

A comment after reading the FIA's full statement on the ICA ruling.

Why wasn't the fact that Whiting had given the 'all green' to McLaren more of a factor? I have always understood that the race director was the top top top authority during a race - able to black-flag a car, order cars with damage to return to the pits for repair etc etc etc. Yet during this race, when a team had relied on his advice, it was overturned later on by the stewards.

If there was any suggestion, history or precedent at all that the race director's decisions could be later challenged then McLaren would have asked Hamilton to let Kimi past again.

In the same light - imagine a car suffered damage near the end of a race and had a flapping barge-board. The race director says: come in and repair or remove it.. the teams ignores this and continues to race for the last couple of laps.. winning the race with the part intact. Should that team be punished? They demonstrated by finishing with the part intact that the director was technically wrong, but they should be punished for ignoring him - such is his power - correct?

It needs to be made very clear for the future that any claim by him be taken as gospel. He should be obliged to give a "I don't know" answer if he isn't sure - and cannot be retrospectively overruled by the stewards if his call is final (as was the case from McLaren's point of view). (The suspected infringement is actually irrelevant - he OKed it.)

This whole thing is pretty shameful. No different to watching a soccer video and deciding after the game that a penalty should have been given - and because most penalties end with a goal, let's just give them an extra goal.

R

[gcdugas]

I agree Rob. The more I think of it the more ridiculous it all seems. All that matters if that the Race Director gave McLaren the OK once not to mention that he did it twice. If his word isn't final then cars can ignore black flags, ignore calls for drive through penalties, ignore yellow flags, jump the start as they see fit etc. The Race Director's word MUST be final.

[Conceptual]

Three rings under the Big Top.

What's next? I seriously don't think that they could do ANYTHING that will top this for most retarded decision of 2008.

I think that it was the fact that the penalty was non-appealable that makes it even worse. The teams cannot appeal the Race Directors decisions, but the stewards can over-ride, and STILL not be appealed?

WTF!?!?

[andartop]

Max Mosley and the FIA are impartial.

No, they re not. F1 has never been impartial, and even less so in the year 2008. The last time I checked it was indeed money running the F1 circus, not sportsmanship. As well as football. The Olympic Games. War on Iraq and Afghanistan. Religion. Art. Science. Pretty much everything come to think about it. The same way it has always been, since the dawn of Homo Sapiens. That does not necessarily mean there are conspiracies all around us. As a wise man once said, $*it happens. You either have to accept the fact, or reject everything. Usually, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Max and Bernie are definitely no saints. But neither are Ron Dennis and LH. Which they proved last year. Insult ignites nemesis. Simple as that.

[casper]

A farce is a farce no matter how convulated the reasoning of the maFIA lawyers make them. --- smells the same no matter how much perfume you pour on it. Truth prevails eventually no matter how much technicalities the maFIA fanboys heap on it. Truth is not dependent on popularity, but exists due to the reality and existence of facts. To counter the truth with claims of conspiracy theories is an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.

Now that the game is up, there's no reason why Kovi should push Massa's car in turn 1 (but not too obviously, just a nudge will do). Even if they send him to position 23, it wont matter anyway. Let the games begin!

[modbaraban]

What you need is...

[shir0]

News Flash: F1 is more and less than a sport - it's also VERY big business. "Sporting" rules alone do NOT apply in this game.

I agree. It is a very big business which brings in more money (and exposure) to all parties involved (teams, manufacturers, sponsors and driver/celebrities). This is the only and main reason why, fair or not, the same people still couldn't let go of the "sport". Since the same people consider this whole affair a "sport" they have to have some sort of code, to paint a picture of fairness and organization, however disfigured that picture maybe. Hell, even the mafia of old followed an unwritten code. Not that they did not bend, or more extremely, break them once in a while. Come to think of it, in recent history, even countries have rules to follow but the same thing happens. Why? Money and power. But still, the rules are rules. If you want to be part of something with rules, you have to at least present an image that you're following them. Not that you can't break them, just be sure you can pull it off without it back-firing on you.

The more I think of it the more ridiculous it all seems. All that matters if that the Race Director gave McLaren the OK once not to mention that he did it twice. If his word isn't final then cars can ignore black flags, ignore calls for drive through penalties, ignore yellow flags, jump the start as they see fit etc. The Race Director's word MUST be final.

Unfortunately, the race director's word in this case isn't final. And the fact that "that the Race Director gave McLaren the OK once not to mention that he did it twice" is not "ALL THAT MATTERS". You can say, "oh horse-back-end-droppings". I tend to agree. Although if it is horse dung, then the teams(in this case, McLaren) should have scrutinized the rules in the first place and rejected unfavorable ones and submitted amendments to it before they agreed to promulgate these rules for this season. However damaging this rule is for McLaren at this point, you can't deny the fact that they knew about the rule and they approved it along with ALL OTHER TEAMS in the first place.

Still horse-poo-poo? Then they can have it changed next season.

I think that it was the fact that the penalty was non-appealable that makes it even worse. The teams cannot appeal the Race Directors decisions, but the stewards can over-ride, and STILL not be appealed?

Again, if McLaren in this case, or any other teams for that matter, now has seen the light and wants to have this rule changed next season, they have every right to do so. So long as all other teams agree (or a majority of the teams does, i'm not sure about this process...)

Now that the game is up, there's no reason why Kovi should push Massa's car in turn 1 (but not too obviously, just a nudge will do). Even if they send him to position 23, it wont matter anyway. Let the games begin!

This is the kind of thing FANBOYS, as you say, get their sustenance from. Pure 100% self excrement. If all the drivers have the same mentality as what you've said above (AND I'M DEFINITELY SURE THEY DO NOT!!!), what's to stop, say, Kimi from doing the same thing to Hamilton in all of the last four races? Or Alonso doing it to LH, for that matter, as he doesn't have anything to lose but sweet revenge to gain? Or even Webber and Glock on LH? Better yet...DC on LH as a teammate revenge on what he did to Webber? [-X

As a wise man once said, $*it happens. You either have to accept the fact, or reject everything. Usually, the truth lies somewhere in the middle...Simple as that.

I couldn't have made it much simpler than how you've put it, andartop.

Let's all drop this whining bit and move on, shall we? There's still four exciting races to go. I myself don't care much for the outcome (who wins, who loses, who got treated unfairly...etc.). I just want to watch the race. We only have so many left before the winter break.

[WhiteBlue]

http://fialive.fiacommunications.com/en ... McL-en.pdf

here you can read the full transcript of the ICA ruling. It explains why Ferrari were in court. it also explains why the Toro Rosso case was sopposed to be different. It also says that the court never examined the substance of the appeal. implicit a number of conclusions from my side:

1. Ferrari behind the scene were pushing very hard to keep the points they gained from the scandalous stewards decision. their claim to the press that they never protested against Hamilton at Spa is really dubious in that light.

2. The precedent of Toro Rosso sucessfully appealing a drive through converted to time penalty was shot down because none of the affected teams did politick as well as Ferrari.

3. The FIA actively supported Ferrari by taking their side in the claims. They missed the chance to investigate the substance of the appeal. I would go a step further and say that their legal strategy was probably motivated by the need to protect their stewards and race director against the public discovery of their apparent wrong doing.

4. As the substance of the scandal was never investigated and the FIA blatantly took party with Ferrari in the legal strategy they are certainly not impartial. They missed an opportunity to demonstrate transparancy and equality in governance of the sport.

5. The FIA lost a great deal of credibility to their F1 world championship as a fair sporting event and promotes speculation why the incompetent race officials are protected.

[Rob W]

here you can read the full transcript...

Thanks for posting this Whiteblue.

It is a strange scenario to outsiders how a sport, over a long period of time, can seem to have such regular hassles over rules/regulations and what seem like inequitable rulings made time and time and time again - disregarding that they are generally to the benefit of one team.

I think it might be an idea to lay down some 'engagement' rules which mean that any correspondence whatsoever with the race director or stewards must go through a single independent channel such as an outside secure company (surely some technology must be available for this) so as to say: anything not being send through these channels will be disregarded and/or reported immediately. Make it an offence to deal directly with race control at all and then monitor it.

Likewise, the race director should have only one channel of contact - a phone with logging/tracking. Ditto for the stewards.

The number of times the whole world have suspected Ferrari have had their fingers involved things it has got to the stage where Ferrari seems to treat the other teams with contempt - almost mocking attempts to claim foul play, bias or interference on their part. This situation shows once again, even to many Ferrari supporters from what I read, that it just isn't right to conduct the sport this way.

Having said that, I don't expect anything to change anytime soon.

R

[myurr]

Let's all drop this whining bit and move on, shall we? There's still four exciting races to go. I myself don't care much for the outcome (who wins, who loses, who got treated unfairly...etc.). I just want to watch the race. We only have so many left before the winter break. [/color]

And there you have just summed up all that is wrong and why everyone is complaining. "I just want to watch the race". Me too. I don't want to watch a stage managed play put on by the FIA and Ferrari. I want to watch a race, where all competitors are given an equal chance in the eyes of the organisers. And I shall continue to complain bitterly about that corruption at the heart of the sport until I can just watch the race knowing that the results are not being manipulated to the advantage of one team above all others.