Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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timbo
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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autogyro wrote:I still say there is absolutely no comparison between Max and his success with F1 and Montezemolo and his devious methods for maintaining an unfair advantage for Ferrari at the expense of F1 and also at the expense of developments in energy efficient road cars.
What is that Max's success with F1?
As for Luca -- he was Ferrari manager at their mid-70's glory years and was at the head of modern Ferrari's resurrection both commercially and in sport.

As for Max and F1 -- he got it the way he wanted. Which was glamor F1. But who did provide all the glamor? Ferrari, McLaren and other big teams.

timbo
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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Giblet wrote:As much as Bernie would like to take credit, it's drivers like Senna (for me) and Schumi (for many others) and their ilk that helped catapult the sport to where it is.
Exactly.
Also, note why we have two races in Spain for three years. It is also said that from 2012 we would have two races in Italy again (not all F1 fans are drivers fans).

autogyro
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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Strange Timbo, your two previous posts seem to contradict themselves.
In one it is 'magic man' Montezemelo and Ferrari glamour that has built F1.
In the other you agree with Giblet and say it is the drivers.

Neither would be anywhere near as much in the world public eye without Max and Bernie having steered F1 there.

timbo
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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autogyro wrote:Strange Timbo, your two previous posts seem to contradict themselves.
In one it is 'magic man' Montezemelo and Ferrari glamour that has built F1.
In the other you agree with Giblet and say it is the drivers.

Neither would be anywhere near as much in the world public eye without Max and Bernie having steered F1 there.
I never said glamor built F1. What I meant that Max and Bernie run F1 to get more money in the sport. That included shaping rules to the manufacturer's liking.

As for driver's -- it's an chicken/egg problem. Fact is you need both. Question is whether Bernie's promotion of F1 is in the best interest of F1.
Yes, he did a lot to increase worldwide F1 coverage. OTOH he is openly confrontational with local promoters and we have races with empty grandstands because promoters have to raise ticket prices accordingly to Bernie's money requests.

andrew
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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I see a lot of Max Mosley bashing. Kudos fellow posters! =D>

But lets look at the positives:

1. He has done a lot for safety over the years which is good.
2. Er?

OK so one good thing in 16 years as FIA president.

He should just shuffle off into obscurity and leave F1 (and motorsport in general) and let Jean Todt try and turn things round. Sadly I fear that Mosley will resurface for re-election after Jean Todt's first 4 years as FIA President.

Mosley is only gunning for LDM as it is supposedly LDM who outed Mosleys private soirees. I would actually like to see LDM as head of the FIA. LDM (like Todt) seems a genuine guy and he had the stones to stand up to Mosley. =D>

Mosley should watch who he calls "crap". Pot kettle black.

andrew
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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timbo wrote:
autogyro wrote:Strange Timbo, your two previous posts seem to contradict themselves.
In one it is 'magic man' Montezemelo and Ferrari glamour that has built F1.
In the other you agree with Giblet and say it is the drivers.

Neither would be anywhere near as much in the world public eye without Max and Bernie having steered F1 there.
I never said glamor built F1. What I meant that Max and Bernie run F1 to get more money in the sport. That included shaping rules to the manufacturer's liking.

As for driver's -- it's an chicken/egg problem. Fact is you need both. Question is whether Bernie's promotion of F1 is in the best interest of F1.
Yes, he did a lot to increase worldwide F1 coverage. OTOH he is openly confrontational with local promoters and we have races with empty grandstands because promoters have to raise ticket prices accordingly to Bernie's money requests.
To be honest, Bernie is a nessesary evil. Maybe his tatics are unethical and he may have caused there to be F1 races with empty stands BUT on the flip-side, F1 has probably never been so available to so many ever. I guess you have to take the good with the bad.

timbo
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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andrew wrote:To be honest, Bernie is a nessesary evil. Maybe his tatics are unethical and he may have caused there to be F1 races with empty stands BUT on the flip-side, F1 has probably never been so available to so many ever. I guess you have to take the good with the bad.
Yes, but F1 needs at least a slightest possibility to have somebody else promoting. With commercial rights sold for 100 years it's impossible.

andrew
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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timbo wrote:
andrew wrote:To be honest, Bernie is a nessesary evil. Maybe his tatics are unethical and he may have caused there to be F1 races with empty stands BUT on the flip-side, F1 has probably never been so available to so many ever. I guess you have to take the good with the bad.
Yes, but F1 needs at least a slightest possibility to have somebody else promoting. With commercial rights sold for 100 years it's impossible.
You're right, there needs to be the opportunity for other promoters to tender for the commercial rights, say every 10 years.

I take it the commercial rights have been sold to Bernie Ecclestones company rather than the man himself?

timbo
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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Yes, although shares are not known exactly. Bernie also seem to own at least a art of the pie personally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_Group

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jon-mullen
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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I can't think of a single sport or activity that ISN'T safer than it was in 1994. If anyone deserves credit for making the sport safer it's the hard-working engineers on the teams and at the circuits, they just needed a rule that wouldn't have making a safe car be a disadvantage.
Loud idiot in red since 2010
United States Grand Prix Club, because there's more to racing than NASCAR

autogyro
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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Luca Montezemolo as FIA President, hahahahahahahaha, I dont believe I even read that. A clown to run the circus, perleeease.

As to puting tenders out for other interested parties to run F1.
Have you actualy looked into the track records of most of those who would be involved. Doing this would make certain that F1 would die.

Bernie is getting on a bit now and I dread to think of what will happen when he is no longer running things. I do agree that a sensible replacement has got to be found some time soon though.

Giblet
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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andrew wrote:I see a lot of Max Mosley bashing. Kudos fellow posters! =D>

But lets look at the positives:

1. He has done a lot for safety over the years which is good.
2. Er?

OK so one good thing in 16 years as FIA president.

He should just shuffle off into obscurity and leave F1 (and motorsport in general) and let Jean Todt try and turn things round. Sadly I fear that Mosley will resurface for re-election after Jean Todt's first 4 years as FIA President.

Mosley is only gunning for LDM as it is supposedly LDM who outed Mosleys private soirees. I would actually like to see LDM as head of the FIA. LDM (like Todt) seems a genuine guy and he had the stones to stand up to Mosley. =D>

Mosley should watch who he calls "crap". Pot kettle black.
It's a shame people can't see past the sensational headlines over the last couple of years.

You understand that F1 is largely still around at all right now because of his insight?

He started the ball rolling with the concept of budget caps before the world market tanked. When car companies will still running their budgets based on record profits, he could see it was unsustainable. He was one of the few smart enough to see the world market could tank anytime.

They laughed at him, then Honda, Toyota, and BMW in rapid succession ran away. Too expensive, for some of the biggest names in the world. Incredible the teams thought this could keep going, and they needed to be sobered. Mosley knew the breakaway would never happen, he had run a breakaway series before in F1, even hosting a couple of races, and spoke from experience.

Imagine the job it has to be to wrangle all the egos in F1, Luca included, to try to reduce costs. I can see few people, after reading many articles and editorials over the years, capable of doing what he did.

Keep in mind that being the head of the FIA is not just about F1. There is lots I despise about Mosley, but there are few in thee world that could do the job he does.

You read what I wrote about the FIAT CEO calling his own Chairman a Bella Figura? That's not high praise.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

myurr
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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Giblet wrote:It's a shame people can't see past the sensational headlines over the last couple of years.

You understand that F1 is largely still around at all right now because of his insight?

He started the ball rolling with the concept of budget caps before the world market tanked. When car companies will still running their budgets based on record profits, he could see it was unsustainable. He was one of the few smart enough to see the world market could tank anytime.

They laughed at him, then Honda, Toyota, and BMW in rapid succession ran away. Too expensive, for some of the biggest names in the world. Incredible the teams thought this could keep going, and they needed to be sobered. Mosley knew the breakaway would never happen, he had run a breakaway series before in F1, even hosting a couple of races, and spoke from experience.

Imagine the job it has to be to wrangle all the egos in F1, Luca included, to try to reduce costs. I can see few people, after reading many articles and editorials over the years, capable of doing what he did.

Keep in mind that being the head of the FIA is not just about F1. There is lots I despise about Mosley, but there are few in thee world that could do the job he does.

You read what I wrote about the FIAT CEO calling his own Chairman a Bella Figura? That's not high praise.
Actually I see it differently. Max encouraged and enthused about the manufacturers first getting involved, even telling Frank Williams that he was stupid not to sell out.

Towards the end of his tenure he constantly bickered and engaged in political warfare with the manufacturers effectively driving them out of F1. Let us not forget that BMW quit after the resource restriction agreement was put in place and saying that it wasn't the money.

It was also never about the money. McLaren and Ferrari both had huge budgets, among the biggest, but both also always spent within their means. McLaren in particular were known for making a profit pretty much every year until their ridiculous FIA fine. Other teams weren't always as diligent, with Toyota in particular throwing good money after bad to an amazing extent, but that is surely the fault of the teams and not something a sporting body should be getting involved in.

To Max the budget cap was all about the politics and reducing or removing the influence of the manufacturers, and with them the threat to his authority and the threat of the teams being able to fund a breakaway series. He set about making F1 unattractive to the manufacturers and instead sought to replace them with teams like USF1.

In a sport a budget cap is akin to placing ballast on successful cars, it's an unnecessary and artificial handicap. You wouldn't see the Olympics restricting richer countries spending on training centres for their athletes so that, for example, a runner from a poor country wasn't disadvantaged, just as you wouldn't see the top tennis players having to carry ballast in their pockets. If the teams have the resources let them use them. F1 shouldn't be about who has the cleverest accountants, it should be about who uses their available resources to their best advantage within the given set of rules.

So Max did some good through the safety initiatives, although even here the credit must be shared with others like Jackie Stewart, he ushered in the manufacturer age which I think was to the benefit of the sport overall, but then he threatened to tear the sport apart with his power struggle for powers sake. His lies and poison towards the end of his presidency were really making his position untenable, and as much as I dreaded Todt taking over thus far at least he has been doing a much better job. It's early days but we have yet to have a major row, the stewards appear to be taking a softer approach which has lead to improved on track action, and those manufacturers that did stay appear to be here for the long term now that things have calmed down.

timbo
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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You do understand that manufacturers are not bound to F1? Ford left long time before crisis hit real hard. There were always ones that come and go.
How long do you think Toyota could tolerate it's on-track embarrassment? Why BMW left at their worst season in F1?
F1 can't be healthy without few strong independent teams. What did Mosley do for them? Hell, F1 needed even Minardy and SA. With them Honda won't probably finish last team on the grip @ 2008.

myurr
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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timbo wrote:You do understand that manufacturers are not bound to F1? Ford left long time before crisis hit real hard. There were always ones that come and go.
How long do you think Toyota could tolerate it's on-track embarrassment? Why BMW left at their worst season in F1?
F1 can't be healthy without few strong independent teams. What did Mosley do for them? Hell, F1 needed even Minardy and SA. With them Honda won't probably finish last team on the grip @ 2008.
Totally agree with you except I don't think that budget caps are the answer. Renault proved that a mid budget team can win against the big boys. I'm loathed to call Brawn a low budget team as their car probably had more development dollars spent on it than any of the others, but this year with a pretty modest budget Nico is right in there. Sort out some of the balance issues and they could keep in the mix to the end of the season.

A tiny budget team should be able to get on the grid, be successful enough to start to attract sponsors and money, and climb to being a mid-budget team. From there on up they should all be able to compete for championships, maybe not as consistently as the big budget teams, but it should certainly be possible.

In pretty much everything I believe in meritocracy rather than dragging the best down to the level of the lowest common denominator. My views on F1 are no different.