Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Problem

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donskar
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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Belatti wrote:OOT, Sorry.

Dave, the history of Ferrari has always been to copy proven innovations and inventions, not to generate them.
Correct -- usually. But semi-automatic transmission thanks to John Barnard?
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

donskar
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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autogyro wrote:
DaveW wrote:Performance limits monitored by real time measurement are often difficult to implement reliably & almost impossible to police. In any case, the idea is a little absurd, if I may say so. That should become clear if I suggest that the most reliable & incorruptible performance measure is lap time. What would you think about about imposing a minimum lap time....?

Allowing a fixed quantity of energy for completing a race is a good idea, I think, although it would introduce some novel technical problems. I'm not sure that it would encourage diversity, however, or stimulate overtaking.
I cannot see any connection between limiting downforce with a maximum figure and a lap time limit.
F1 is not a race for the aero guys with the winner having the highest downforce.
This is what I think you mean Dave.
RE: the portion above I bolded . . . I'd say rather, "F1 should not be a race for the aero guys with the winner having the highest downforce." But it is.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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donskar wrote:
Belatti wrote:OOT, Sorry.

Dave, the history of Ferrari has always been to copy proven innovations and inventions, not to generate them.
Correct -- usually. But semi-automatic transmission thanks to John Barnard?
Sorry but I was developing automatic and semi automatic gearboxes both layshaft and epicyclic for motor racing in the mid 1970s.
I was consulted by Ferrari and visited Marenelo in the late 1980s on just that subject.
Neither Ferrari or John Barnard had the idea first.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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Would have thought if you visited Maranello, you'd know how to spell it :wink:

Just a piss take, hehe. For some reason I believe you.

Though John Barnard rightly deserves credit for getting the technology onto the race track first. I'm sure a lot of other people were talking about this technology at this time but as they say, talk is cheap.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

autogyro
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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Very true Tim. John Barnard deserves the credit.
However it does show that Ferrari do not often come up with new ideas.
It is why they need such a huge budget to keep up.
It is also why they do not want to work under the same restrictions as everyone else.
Mind you, I do not want to criticise them to much, they have always been the target to aim for by those teams with ideas people and far lower resources.
Part of the make up of F1.

The problem is that Ferrari will be the biggest obstacle to the new regulations you can bank on it.

DaveW
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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autogyro wrote:I cannot see any connection between limiting downforce with a maximum figure and a lap time limit.
F1 is not a race for the aero guys with the winner having the highest downforce.
This is what I think you mean Dave.
I tried to suggest two things, auto.

First, any measure that is intended to limit (perhaps artificially) the performance of a race car can be arranged to generate a required output without interfering with the transducer(s), SCU, or static calibration results. Second, if the limit is artificial (i.e. the vehicle is capable of more performance), then the imposed limit is a nonsense even if the measure is not "fixed" in any way.

I should, perhaps, add that no transducer measures what it says on the tin.

Hence, for example, a lateral accelerometer does not measure the centripetal acceleration of the vehicle c.g., it measures the relative displacement along a local axis of a spring-restrained mass (or, for the rich, the current required to force a mass to maintain position within its case), the case being attached to local vehicle structure. Any engineer who has tried will tell you how difficult it is to obtain meaningful results. He would also be able to suggest several ways to obtain non-meaningful results, pretty much to order.

Yet again, Lotus active cars used suspension loads as primary inputs. We designed bespoke load cells that were as "pure" as we knew how to make them but, in use, we had to correct measurements both for components that were present (& were not required) & were not present (& were required) - & that had wishbones that were not designed to carry bending loads....

p.s. Just to illustrate the accelerometer problem, if the transducer is attached at the ideal location, but is arranged to "roll in" at 7.5 deg/gn, then the output will under-read by 16%, 20%, & 25% at lateral accelerations of 2, 3, & 4 gn, respectively (assuming my calcs are correct). Hence an actual 4 gn would read just under 3 gn - quite a useful return for a very modest investment, you might think....
Last edited by DaveW on 05 Dec 2010, 18:32, edited 1 time in total.

autogyro
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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Not an easy problem to overcome then Dave.
Hmm, I thought doing so was part of the F1 ethic.

I suppose it only applies to loop hole chasing in aero then.

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Paul
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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Well, FIA should start by ensuring they can control how current rules are obeyed. If everyone sees that the no-flexing rules are being broken, but FIA can do nothing about it, then it can only make one think that it doesn't matter what is written in the rules.

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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So stick the car in an FIA wind tunnel.
Connect a strain gauge to the roll hoop and blow 230mph wind at the things.

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flynfrog
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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if we are going to that why not just issue a spec tub to every one and a spec engine block and they can all build there own gearbox and KERS that way they will swarm to autogyros magic box. There we wont have to worry about aero guys getting all the glory.

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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Hmmm, interesting thought flyn.
Might work better for the future of transport generaly.

Anyway, why not an FIA wind tunnel check.

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flynfrog
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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why not just spec wings its much cheaper same ends. If you want more overtaking double the power cut the tires in half.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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autogyro wrote: Anyway, why not an FIA wind tunnel check.
I can think of a few practical reasons.

1. The cost of a wind tunnel is massive. Its a lot of money to invest just to check one rule which could be gone in a short time

2. How do you spec the wind tunnel? Every team have different levels of sophistication in the tunnels and they have a large impact on results. I've heard two teams this year claiming deficiencies in their wind tunnel have caused losses in performance.

3. Therefore how do you, as an engineer, know that your car will pass the FIA wind tunnel test even if its ok in your tunnel. This could cause millions of € in rework.

4. To really guarentee conformance, the test will have to be so complicated. Are you going to test at one speed? One side slip angle? or a sweep of them? What ride height (as affected by fuel load)? etc etc.

Unless the team have access to this tunnel very easily (which is impossible given time constraints and geographic location of the teams) trying to design a compliant car will be largely shotting in the dark.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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An FIA wind tunnel working group, with input from the teams, resulting in an agreed design and the change over from wind tunnels to CFDs by all teams based on the data from the FIA WWG.

rifrafs2kees
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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As many people have said already, it'll be very difficult and opaque to the viewer to have maximum outputs policed. For me, as I have stated before, the best way forward would be to set a max fuel allowed per race. At the end of the year, if the races are determined to be too slow, the fuel allowed is bumped up and vice versa. If a spec wing or max downforce is set, I can see teams spending tonnes of money to cut drag...then we'll have a "low drag war" and we're back to square one. I like autogyros idea of forcing everyone to use CFD's. It's where the technology is going anyway.