Spygate, again (from No Angel: The Secret Life of Bernie E.)

[ringo]

Are we really giving any credibility to someone claiming that Alonso did ask Ron Dennis to sabotage his protege from 10+ years? I am talking of the "make sure he runs out of fuel" bit in a different part of the book.
We know from his own mouth that Alonso thought that Ron Dennis (or McLaren as a whole) was favoring Hamilton over him and he has acknowledged to feeling a bit paranoid about that. The fact that he was already feeling disfavored before Monaco is what made the whole incident snowball so big.
It all sounds a bit ridiculous, IMHO.

I can readily believe it as an emotional outburst, less so if it was more considered. But yes I can see him asking for that. He had just been stripped of pole position, and he was struggling to reconcile the fact that he was being beaten on track by Hamilton. Alonso, like most World Champions, thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread and cannot be beaten unless the odds are stacked against him. That is where his paranoia came from - he simply could not compute that anyone was capable of beating him in equal machinery and put it down to the team sabotaging his chances rather than entertain the thought that Hamilton was equalling and beating him on merit.

So, if you think the team (Ron) is sabotaging your chances, it makes perfect logical sense to ask Ron (the team) to sabotage your teammate instead...

There is no justification for such thoughts. Think about what you are saying.
It's the same reason why i think that electronic glitch in brazil on Hamilton's car had something to do with the FIA, Alonso, Briatore, Mosley etc.
I've held that suspicion for years now and it doesn't seem to far fetched after hearing Alonso's crude intentions.

In no way should any one endorse sabotaging another driver's car. No matter how un special Alonso feels, he can't just say something like that and then gain support from fans for such reasoning.
If he can ask for underfueling, he's crude enough to ask for severed brake lines, faulty power steering or even crashes into the barrier on a street circuit.

Imagine if Hamilton asked Mclaren to under fuel Alonso? Imagine the outrage?
Or if Webber got frustrated with Vettel being faster than him and asking that redbull sobotage something on Vettel's car if he doesn't get the treatment he thinks he deserves.
Madness.

Alonso is still second on my list, because i think speed is more important than personality, but damn!! He's taking the villain role too seriously.

[Goran2812]

you must be joking ringo! So to you,the whole world was against Hamilton and Mclaren... c'mon... common sense anyone?

[ringo]

You never know.

Who would have thought Alonso wanted Hamilton to be under fueled before this book came out?
Anything is possible.

That piquet crash in 2008 seemed pretty normal when it happened, and anyone suggesting it was on purpose was labeled as crazy or lacking common sense.

Reminiscing about it... 2007 was a year to remember.
Complete psychological and chronological destruction of a 2xWDC by a rookie coupled with the espionage and the bitterness.

I don't think we'll ever see so much drama in F1 ever again.
Both drivers should go down as greats, just for 2007.

[andrew]

Complete psychological and chronological destruction of a 2xWDC by a rookie coupled with the espionage and the bitterness.

Don't remember that at all. I remeber McLaren siding with their product though.

[Pup]

Ringo is right in that it makes those suspicions a bit more reasonable. Whether that makes them reasonable enough to bring them out of the realm of conspiracy theory is up for debate. But to play devil's advocate, imagine if Alonso had more on McLaren than just the letters. Were he to reveal that info after the second trial, it would have been a true disaster for McLaren; and if he'd asked McLaren to sabotage Hamilton's car before, it seems likely he'd take the opportunity to do so again. So with certain doom hanging over them, would McLaren have let him have his way? Electronic glitches in Brazil seems a stretch, though I admit that one has yet to be explained satisfactorily. But, leaving him out on warn tires in China? Doesn't seem too far fetched I suppose. Again, just following Ringo's line of thought - there's no evidence whatsoever to imply it happened. All we have are suspicious circumstances and a healthy imagination.

[ringo]

Complete psychological and chronological destruction of a 2xWDC by a rookie coupled with the espionage and the bitterness.

Don't remember that at all. I remeber McLaren siding with their product though.

Yeah i don't remember either.
The brain has a way of forgetting the most traumatizing experiences.

When did Mclaren side with their "product" though?
And how does that translate to on track competition between the 2 drivers?

I see more a case where The Champ saved the dirt on Mclaren for a rainy day. If things were going his way, he would have no need to blackmail Mclaren.

Unfortunately he was powerless on track so he fought back off it.
That's what we are seeing here. It's pretty clear.

Whether the glitch in Brazil is an extension of that remains to be seen, but it's definitely more plausible now.

It would suit the sport not to have cheaters Mclaren as champions, especially a rookie. The sport would look like a joke wouldn't it?
2xwdc whooped by a rookie, and a car born of stolen information cemented in history.
If Alonso can throw the toys out for a qualifying session, imagine what he can get done, with the help of his friends upstairs, for a championship determining race.

[forty-two]

Update:

I bought the book and have so far had trouble putting it down.

So far, I now have the distinct impression that Bernie is significantly more ruthless than I had ever given him credit for. A real slippery wheeler-dealer, whom you cross at your peril.

What I can't yet work out is why? What is he ever going to do with all that cash?

I shall report back when I have finished the book.

[Just_a_fan]

Complete psychological and chronological destruction of a 2xWDC by a rookie coupled with the espionage and the bitterness.

Don't remember that at all. I remeber McLaren siding with their product though.

Ah yes, the old "take on a world champ on several million a year and then spend your time undermining him for the sake of a rookie" line.

Ron has just set up a new car company (McLaren Automotive) and developed a brand new supercar. All without a bank loan. The sort of person who does that is not the sort of person who wastes £tens-of-millions just to annoy a Spanish racing driver.

Alonso was happy to use the info from the Ferrari dossier when he thought it might win him the title. As soon as the young pup in the other car started beating him for pace he used the same dossier to try to blackmail the team to his advantage. Thing is, Ron isn't a man to be blackmailed...

[gridwalker]

Complete psychological and chronological destruction of a 2xWDC by a rookie coupled with the espionage and the bitterness.

Don't remember that at all. I remeber McLaren siding with their product though.

Yeah i don't remember either.
The brain has a way of forgetting the most traumatizing experiences.

When did Mclaren side with their "product" though?
And how does that translate to on track competition between the 2 drivers?

I see more a case where The Champ saved the dirt on Mclaren for a rainy day. If things were going his way, he would have no need to blackmail Mclaren.

Unfortunately he was powerless on track so he fought back off it.
That's what we are seeing here. It's pretty clear.

Whether the glitch in Brazil is an extension of that remains to be seen, but it's definitely more plausible now.

It would suit the sport not to have cheaters Mclaren as champions, especially a rookie. The sport would look like a joke wouldn't it?
2xwdc whooped by a rookie, and a car born of stolen information cemented in history.
If Alonso can throw the toys out for a qualifying session, imagine what he can get done, with the help of his friends upstairs, for a championship determining race.

My thoughts exactly, which was why I watched the TERRIBLY DULL Abu Dhabi race with a big grin on my face ...

[vall]

Alonso was happy to use the info from the Ferrari dossier when he thought it might win him the title. As soon as the young pup in the other car started beating him for pace he used the same dossier to try to blackmail the team to his advantage. Thing is, Ron isn't a man to be blackmailed...

Do we really know if Alonso knew where and in what way this information has been obtained? He did had email exchange with PdlR, who told him the info comes from their chief designer Mike C., who in turn has the information from a Ferrari guy. But this does not mean Alosno actually know about the dossier (they were never mentioned in the e-mails, no)!!! Moreover, the fact the their chief designer Mike C. was the source of the information may made Alonso think Ron and the team also knew about it, etc.

Anyway, I am waiting the report of Forty-two about wait exactly is said in the book.

[Goran2812]

vall don't bother... Alonso is satan! He actually copied all those papers...

[myurr]

Alonso was happy to use the info from the Ferrari dossier when he thought it might win him the title. As soon as the young pup in the other car started beating him for pace he used the same dossier to try to blackmail the team to his advantage. Thing is, Ron isn't a man to be blackmailed...

Do we really know if Alonso knew where and in what way this information has been obtained? He did had email exchange with PdlR, who told him the info comes from their chief designer Mike C., who in turn has the information from a Ferrari guy. But this does not mean Alosno actually know about the dossier (they were never mentioned in the e-mails, no)!!! Moreover, the fact the their chief designer Mike C. was the source of the information may made Alonso think Ron and the team also knew about it, etc.

Anyway, I am waiting the report of Forty-two about wait exactly is said in the book.

So let me get this straight, you think it's plausible that Alonso didn't know where the info came from but then when the team conducted their internal investigation into it he kept those emails to himself out of the goodness of his heart? Whether or not he knew at the time of the emails being sent where the info came from is pretty irrelevant when he then kept that info to himself when the time came and used it to blackmail Ron Dennis. Had Alonso admitted early on that the emails existed then it is arguable that McLaren would have escaped the heavy sanction they eventually received. It was, after all, for concealing information from the first trial rather than the act of spying and Alonso played a major part in that.

[Richard]

tsk

6* huge egos clashed and swung handbags

Great soap opera, but do we really need to rake over those ashes again ?

6 = moseley, dennis, alsonso, ecclestone, hamilton, plus the man on grass knoll in china & brazil & photocopying shop

[myurr]

Great soap opera, but do we really need to rake over those ashes again ?

To me this episode gets to the heart of the problems with the sport during one of the most politicised eras in the sports history. It shapes my opinion on all those involved, and is thus integral to my understanding of the sport and the personalities within it. Is it essential to rake over these ashes again? No, not really. But it is interesting to me and some others.

It's been said many times before but you don't have to read the thread or participate in it if you don't like what's being said.

[vall]

Do we really know if Alonso knew where and in what way this information has been obtained? He did had email exchange with PdlR, who told him the info comes from their chief designer Mike C., who in turn has the information from a Ferrari guy. But this does not mean Alosno actually know about the dossier (they were never mentioned in the e-mails, no)!!! Moreover, the fact the their chief designer Mike C. was the source of the information may made Alonso think Ron and the team also knew about it, etc.

Anyway, I am waiting the report of Forty-two about wait exactly is said in the book.

So let me get this straight, you think it's plausible that Alonso didn't know where the info came from but then when the team conducted their internal investigation into it he kept those emails to himself out of the goodness of his heart? Whether or not he knew at the time of the emails being sent where the info came from is pretty irrelevant when he then kept that info to himself when the time came and used it to blackmail Ron Dennis. Had Alonso admitted early on that the emails existed then it is arguable that McLaren would have escaped the heavy sanction they eventually received. It was, after all, for concealing information from the first trial rather than the act of spying and Alonso played a major part in that.

Do you really think McLaren were innocent? Nobody, Ron included, knew what was going on? The so-called internal investigation did not find anything? And later Ron said that the Ferrari info penetrated deeply at all levels at McLaren, and yet they could not find a trace C'mon.

One may say Alsonso acted in line with the official McLaren position that there was no Ferrari information. So, Alonso may be regarded as a good loyal employee Until his employer turned against him and he decided to give the info to FIA.