2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[toraabe]

Let the v6 stay. Just modify the surroundings

[taperoo2k]

https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/07/23 ... our-sport/

The crux of what Tombazis said was that technical innovation in F1 was no longer relevant and that F1 and the FIA want the innovative focus to be biofuel and finance from 2022 onwards.

Is it really valid for F1’s greatest mandate to now be sustainability, be it environmental or financial, at the expense of the very reasons the sport was founded on in the first place?

Now that F1 has the hands of a publicly floated global media company with shareholder returns to answer for around its neck, I fear the sport is choking and forgetting what it is and where it came from.

Technical Innovation in F1:
From 13 May 1950 – 31 December 2021.
Rest In Peace. You will be dearly missed.

Sad State of Affairs Indeed...

Not really, if F1 can develop a biofuel that's as close to carbon neutral as possible then that would be a good thing indeed. Manufacturers like Mercedes won't stick around in F1 if it doesn't suit their business interests. The automotive industry is moving towards EV's and probably hydrogen fuel cells. F1 can either be part of the innovation of that change, or stay stuck in the past. Biofuels are probably a stop gap measure to bridge the gap between the EV etc and the ICE transition, whilst new infrastructure, new battery technologies etc and power generation methods are developed and built. I expect F1 will probably end up with a hydrogen fuel cell based PU in the future or something we've not yet conceived of. While I do like the sound of a good engine, it's at the end of the day wasted energy that could be put to better uses. F1 is about being at the pinnacle of technology, not being stuck in the past.

[mzso]

The automotive industry is moving towards EV's and probably hydrogen fuel cells. F1 can either be part of the innovation of that change, or stay stuck in the past. Biofuels are probably a stop gap measure to bridge the gap between the EV etc and the ICE transition, whilst new infrastructure, new battery technologies etc and power generation methods are developed and built. I expect F1 will probably end up with a hydrogen fuel cell based PU in the future or something we've not yet conceived of. While I do like the sound of a good engine, it's at the end of the day wasted energy that could be put to better uses. F1 is about being at the pinnacle of technology, not being stuck in the past.

Why do you think hydrogen? I don't think its suitable for F1. Nor is it viable against EVs on the road.

I do agree that engines are a waste of energy at this point, but so is using hydrogen, to a lesser degree.

[JordanMugen]

Mercedes was all for i4 until they saw the advantage they would have with the split turbo inside a V6. It was pretty easy to convince the fia after Audi backed out.

I doubt current manufacturers want to start from scratch with an i4 and spend another bilion on ICE.

Mercedes already have the 2.0L inline-four. The switch to 2.0L inline-four wouldn't cost much at all.

Sadly I can't find a picture of the Mercedes DTM engine, but these are the other inline-four engines from the DTM/SuperGT regulations -- purpose-built racing blocks with all the latest lean burn technology derived from F1, very similar 95 kg/hr fuel regulations, all ready to go with little more to spend:

Honda HR-414E



Audi

http://www.speedhunters.com/2019/03/goo ... -cylinder/

BMW P48

https://mediapool.bmwgroup.com/cache/P9 ... 2121px.jpg

It seems like the Garrett turbocharger is a control part, as it seems to be the same turbo located in the same position on all of the engines. Engine weight is quoted at 85kg -- not a bad starting point to add a hybrid system.

[J.A.W.]

If you want Garrett involvement - Pat Symonds could ask Garrett to do a feasibility study
of an SI/electro-hybrid variation - on an earlier hi-po turbo-compound 2T proposal of theirs,
a thousand horsepower CI 2.2 litre V6:

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi ... 001160.pdf

[garrett]

A inline four would require a support frame.. It will not by nature be stiff enough

I don't think an I4 is such a problem as it was used in F2 Palmer about ten years ago. In any case, I don't think we will see an V4 as only Porsche would be interested, the other manufacturers won't accept such a trivial pursuit and it would be much more expensive than an I4.

But, as said before, if someone wants to use an I4 he should get the possibility to use it and if the others would like to stay with an V6 also.

And the MGU-H will have to go for good. that's getting clearer.

Speaking of Audi, Dieter Rencken wrote today that obviously FIA deputy Adam Baker is leaving to Audi asap, which gives the rumours about going to F1 a new momentum. He also suggests that the four rings could team up with Red Bull (which would be obvious) and "adopt" the ex-Honda PU?

https://www.racefans.net/2021/07/31/pad ... -part-one/

[mzso]

Interesting that most discussion is about cylinder numbers and layout. Neither takes us any further in sustainability, which seems to be their main goal. Nor is it of much relevance to those who plainly want noise...
I don't think there's any significant potential to improve ICE efficiency, unless they plan to burn millions on an engine that works on some really high temperatures like 3000K+, if it's at all possible. (Can't see how they could lubricate)
Can't see it happening.

[Tommy Cookers]

... I don't think there's any significant potential to improve ICE efficiency ......

that's what they said last time - and they were wrong

presumably there's scope to gain efficiency by further diluting the heat
(further reducing heat loss - even eliminating heat loss to coolant)

yes this would require 2 stage compressors and turbines
and pre-chamber fuelling by eg natural gas or hydrogen

presumably Merc's management don't want to go that way ...

btw
I didn't believe the present heat dilution was viable (thinking compressor and turbine efficiencies were insufficient)
having forgotten that I signed off a 216 bar (internally) compressed air system that had 'only' 3 stages - all centrifugal
6 x 6 x 6 = 216

[Big Tea]

What would be the pro's and cons of a 4 of a different type, such as flat 4 or I4, or even 3, but transverse or/and 'laying down'?

A transverse and laying down or leaning steeply would mean a shorter and lower car with the weight almost mid point?
Same with an opposed 4. Very flat as long as all the ancillaries are above it, or even alongside the heads?

Also, a BMW and Mazda seem to 'own the patents' to wankels, would they be encouraged to enter if this was an option?

[mzso]

Also, a BMW and Mazda seem to 'own the patents' to wankels, would they be encouraged to enter if this was an option?

Patents? They should be expired by this point, no?

I think the Wankel is done, even for road applications. Too inefficient, oil thirsty and all-in-all troublesome.
And I don't think anyone wants to pick-up and develop from scratch the definitely patented improvement on the Wankel concept, the Liquidpiston engine. (Other rotary engines only exist on paper and in CAD files.)

[Zynerji]

Also, a BMW and Mazda seem to 'own the patents' to wankels, would they be encouraged to enter if this was an option?

Patents? They should be expired by this point, no?

I think the Wankel is done, even for road applications. Too inefficient, oil thirsty and all-in-all troublesome.
And I don't think anyone wants to pick-up and develop from scratch the definitely patented improvement on the Wankel concept, the Liquidpiston engine. (Other rotary engines only exist on paper and in CAD files.)

RadMax disagrees...

[jjn9128]

I may be misremembering, but there was a postgrad building a hydrogen powered rotary engine back when I was doing my undergrad (at least 10 years ago so memory is somewhat hazy on details). What I do remember though is that thing was LOUD!!

[wuzak]

... I don't think there's any significant potential to improve ICE efficiency ......

that's what they said last time - and they were wrong

They (the FIA) thought they would get engines about the same power as the old V8s + KERS. ie 830-850hp.

Instead the manufacturers have ended up with power units approaching, or even exceeding, 1000hp.

[wuzak]

What would be the pro's and cons of a 4 of a different type, such as flat 4 or I4, or even 3, but transverse or/and 'laying down'?

A transverse and laying down or leaning steeply would mean a shorter and lower car with the weight almost mid point?
Same with an opposed 4. Very flat as long as all the ancillaries are above it, or even alongside the heads?

The problem with the flat 4 or transverse engines is that they are moving to underbody venturis from next year, and those type of engines will interfere with them. The transverse engines will also, likely, make the venturis too short to be effective, though it would be the same for everybody.

[wuzak]

Why do you think hydrogen? I don't think its suitable for F1. Nor is it viable against EVs on the road.

Depends on what type of vehicle.

In cars, maybe not. But long haul trucks, where payload is the most important factor.

Recently a Hyundai Nexo fuel cell SUV broke the world record for distance traveled, just shy of 900km using just over 6kg of hydrogen.

The Nexo weighs 1,800kg, roughly the same as an equivalent petrol model, lighter than a BEV.

The official range is ~666km/414 miles.