Is Vettel overrated? What do you think

[bhall]

Mod edit:

mnmracer - I guess we'll have to agree to disagree

[mnmracer]

Mod edit:

I agree

[Cam]

I know I might be opening a can of worms.....

Mission achieved.

Even I'm backing away from this one.

[Richard]

Driver discussions often start off being well intentioned but so many end in bickering.

This is a team sport with complex interaction between engineering design & manufacturing, race strategy, luck, money and driver talent. We also know that the RB rise to the top coincided with a dramatic change in the regs.

Isolating the driver input is very hard, especially as none of us actually know how much input a driver has because the PR tells us that every driver is wonderful.

We can only guess how the many factors interact - some of it might just be luck of being in the right place at the right time.

What we do know is that Vettel is a very good driver in a car designed by a very good designer. Anything beyond that is opinion. I'm sure we're all intelligent curious people with inquiring minds and I'm always interested in erudite thinking. So this could be an interesting thread. We could all learn a little bit, especially when the more experienced members bring in illustrative comparisons from other eras.

BUT please do recognize that nothing can be proven. There is no absolute argument to be won or lost, we are debating shifting shades of grey.

Constructive posts from inquiring minds please.

[bhall]

Numbers, numbers, numbers!

The following is a series of teammate comparisons from f1-facts.com. Two points are awarded for a category in which a driver fares better against his teammate. Similarly, two points are subtracted for a category in which a driver fares worse. Fastest laps between teammates are handled likewise, but only one point is in-play.

The driver's average score per category within that season is listed in the last column. The driver's overall average score is highlighted in red. (Click each table to enlarge)

Fernando Alonso


Michael Schumacher


Sebastian Vettel


Lewis Hamilton


Kimi Raikkonen


Jenson Button


Juan Manuel Fangio


Jim Clark


Ayrton Senna


Nelson Piquet


Alain Prost


You can draw your own conclusions.

[SeijaKessen]

Wow, that's a phenomenal post.

Lot's of great numbers there.

[f1316]

Extremely interesting numbers. What it doesn't do, of course, is factor in extenuating circumstances, which is why, for example, Michael Schumacher is trailing Rosberg by so much this season according to the numbers; there's obviously no column for mechanical breakdowns.

Slightly off-topic, but I find the Alonso/Trulli comparison very interesting. The closeness of the numbers would certainly indicate that the latter might not have deserved to be treated as he was, but then we know that numbers are not the whole story and that, if championship points were awarded for qualifying, Trulli would be an all-time great. But his numbers put him closer to Alonso than Hamilton, which further strengthens the "pinch of salt" way in which these stats should be viewed (which I'm sure the poster was aware of, btw).

Regarding Vettel specifically, perhaps it is also worth remembering that he likes his statistics, so is likely to come out well on paper. I would suggest that Webber is possibly less bothered about the stats. Nevertheless, I think the numbers do paint a fairly representative picture in for Vettel speed relative to his team mates...and maybe show that Liuzzi was another Italian who could have been dealt a better hand early in his career

[Richard]

Nice numbers - but are they valid? Surely it depends on whether the driver is the de-facto number 1 in a team where they pick a safe number 2 under team orders, versus a team with two competitive divers fighting on track?

[Cam]

I don't get what all those numbers are supposed to represent? Does it prove Vettel is overrated or average, or what?

Vettel has won 2 World Championships. 2. Trying to take that away by saying it was only the car or any other myriad of numbers or skewed facts, doesn't remove the fact he's a dual champ in a category that's very difficult to become a world champ in - all the pieces have to be right, the right driver, right team, right car, right regs, right amount of luck all at the right time and he did it back to back. He's the perfect face for the future of F1. He's bankable, the people love him, MrE loves him, RBR love him, his sponsors love him, and young kids coming through the ranks - you guessed it - love him. Not me though, but I respect what he's achieved and how he's done it and he has earned the accolades and deserves them.

[bhall]

The numbers are by no means an exhaustive measure of a driver's success, because there are simply too many variables in F1 for such a statistic to ever exist. But, given at least an elementary understanding of the varied dynamics that exist from one team to another, I do think they provide a reasonable window to a driver's performance.

I think the best way to use them is to compare driver X's numbers with those of his teammate before/after they were teammates. That's a good indicator of relative strength and weakness. (Just take care not to tangle yourself up in the web of associations lest you find yourself in the F1 equivalent of the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.)

EDIT: It's never been my goal to disparage Vettel. I just want to see objectivity take precedence over fantasy.

[Cam]

What about records? He's set a few.

[bhall]

Indeed. He's a great driver. I don't think anyone has ever argued against that.

I just think intra-team comparisons are a bit more relevant, because they remove from the equation the strengths (and weaknesses, for that matter) of the car relative to the field. Records are dependent on that variable.

[beelsebob]

What about records? He's set a few.

Sure, the question is... Would Alonso/Hamilton in the same team have set the same number, more, fewer?

[Nando]

Mod edit:

mnmracer - I guess we'll have to agree to disagree

Mod edit:

I agree

I laughed so hard when i read this at work Nice job Admin/mod.

[Nando]

You need to stop throwing around terms like "greatest" as easily as you do.

There's a table reserved for the upper echelons of champions.

Hamilton, no matter how much you may wish it, is not worthy of sitting at that table. Neither is Vettel for that matter.

Are you really going to tell me Hamilton is worthy of sitting with Jimmy Clark, Fangio, Senna, and Prost?[/quote]

And you probably need to start reading better. ONE of the greatest.

This is my opinion and yes i believe had you put Fangio, Clark and Senna in todays cars they would perform on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel.

They are human beings, not some bionic robots that had skills unheard of.
And competition was not anywhere near what it is today. Cars are more important today, this makes it very hard for driver´s to make much of a difference.

To answer your last question, yes i would put Hamilton Alonso and Vettel and Schumacher in that box. They are all extremely good drivers, the absolute best open wheel drivers on the planet right now.

Just like Clark, Senna, Prost, Fangio were in their time. In 20 years we will all be talking about Hamilton and the boys in the same sense as Clark and the rest.