Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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andartop
andartop
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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ringo wrote: Well after the whole team orders thing with ferrari, i have reason to be suspicious of what Massa has freedom to do on track.

I think it was 2008 or 2007 where Massa spun Hamilton around in the first turns of a certain race (malaysia?); i can't remember. But Massa doesn't have much regard for Hamilton when he is close by. Massa moved twice in Australia defending Hamilton, damaging his wing and there are other instances.
I've nothing against Massa, but for a guy with nothing to play for, he's dangerous in this part of the championship, and his only aim could be to trip up the front runners to keep Alonso in touch.
Massa doesn't have to aim to crash into someone to trip them up. Let me be clear he didn't aim to hit Hamilton today, all he really did was throw caution to the wind and went for a gap that could have potentially ended his race as well.
He covered Alonso's gear box, if he went through clean, no problem, if he hit Hamilton in the process, no problem.

Call me paranoid, but Massa's role is not to win for himself; it's to keep Alonso ahead.
I will not call you paranoid but I think your post is insane.
Massa was actually fighting Alonso, not covering him, they almost banged wheels at the first chicane and were side by side all the way to the second. There have been many first lap incidents on the second chicane at Monza exactly because there is hardly enough space for two cars to go through, let alone three.
Lewis had the best chance to have a good view of what was going on in front of him and be a bit cautious, instead he chose to just dive in like there's no tomorrow hoping to capitalize on Alonso's pass on Massa.
He took full responsibility for the incident and admitted the only one to blame was himself.
Still, you keep arguing Massa had a responsibility for this incident as well, when even the BBC commentators ruled 100% fault on Hammi, and THAT says it all!
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft

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ringo
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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Ray wrote:Differences aside Ringo, I bet we can agree that Lewis going out on the first lap made the race worse. I was upset to see such a small tap take him out. Alonso pushing Button was good, but with Lewis up there it would have been an awesome knife fight between those three.
Yes, an Alonso Hamilton showdown hasn't really happened this year.
Hamilton wasted the Monza setup as well. A complete waste, would've been good to see the pace of the low downforce setup.
Alonso toying with Jenson was enough to make the race for me though. A reminder of who the big boys in the game are. ALonso never really saw Button as a threat.
2010 looks like an Alonso Hamilton fight; Button's punching over his weight class.
For Sure!!

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ringo
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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andartop wrote:
ringo wrote: Well after the whole team orders thing with ferrari, i have reason to be suspicious of what Massa has freedom to do on track.

I think it was 2008 or 2007 where Massa spun Hamilton around in the first turns of a certain race (malaysia?); i can't remember. But Massa doesn't have much regard for Hamilton when he is close by. Massa moved twice in Australia defending Hamilton, damaging his wing and there are other instances.
I've nothing against Massa, but for a guy with nothing to play for, he's dangerous in this part of the championship, and his only aim could be to trip up the front runners to keep Alonso in touch.
Massa doesn't have to aim to crash into someone to trip them up. Let me be clear he didn't aim to hit Hamilton today, all he really did was throw caution to the wind and went for a gap that could have potentially ended his race as well.
He covered Alonso's gear box, if he went through clean, no problem, if he hit Hamilton in the process, no problem.

Call me paranoid, but Massa's role is not to win for himself; it's to keep Alonso ahead.
I will not call you paranoid but I think your post is insane.
Massa was actually fighting Alonso, not covering him, they almost banged wheels at the first chicane and were side by side all the way to the second. There have been many first lap incidents on the second chicane at Monza exactly because there is hardly enough space for two cars to go through, let alone three.
Lewis had the best chance to have a good view of what was going on in front of him and be a bit cautious, instead he chose to just dive in like there's no tomorrow hoping to capitalize on Alonso's pass on Massa.
He took full responsibility for the incident and admitted the only one to blame was himself.
Still, you keep arguing Massa had a responsibility for this incident as well, when even the BBC commentators ruled 100% fault on Hammi, and THAT says it all!
Where did i say Hamilton is not responsible? He put himself in the situation.
The outcome would have been different if a contender was in the other ferrari is all.

And why do you think Massa has any business fighting Alonso? What's the benefit to ferrari?
Massa is playing the fool to catch the wise. Notice he hasn't used the word win since hockenheim. He can claim he's fighting alonso all he wants, if it makes him feel good. :lol:

check: this out
Q: You stayed out longer than the other two before you made your first pit stop. Did you think you might be able to jump them?
FM: Well, it was a good idea to stay out longer but I expected the hard tyres after one lap, the out lap, to be stronger than the soft. I pitted and then I struggled like Jenson massively on the out lap. But then the hard improved and it was quicker than the soft. But anyway it was a good race. The team did a good job. I think I lost a little bit of time in the pit stop as well. Maybe that was something to fight for the positions in the front. But it was a great race especially to come here and see all these people on the main straight. You don’t see the asphalt. You just see people all around. It is just fantastic. It is a great feeling being on the podium here in Monza. It is a fantastic feeling for us.
Yeah right Felipe, keep dodging.
Talking about asphalt and people. :lol: What about the wins? To saw win or any words depicting challenging Alonso is to blaspheme.
Last edited by ringo on 12 Sep 2010, 21:37, edited 2 times in total.
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Pup
Pup
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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Not much to add to the lolipop discussion but what I originally said...
Pup wrote:Yeah, the lolipop went up way too early. The mechanic was an extra, sent in to fix the radio I think. No red helmet, and wearing all black, crouching around a black car. Not smart, HRT; time to rethink those uniforms. I wonder if the lolipop guy was even told that there would be an extra body to keep an eye on?
...except that accidents like this frequently have multiple points of cause. First is the decision to use all black uniforms around a black car. Dumb. Second, I suspect they realized that was a problem and had the guys don bright red helmets. A good decision, but when they did that, they should have made a rule that no one got near the car without a red helmet, because then the guy without one is even less likely to be noticed. Third, they probably did not tell the lolipop guy that he needed to keep an eye on the extra ninja that was going to appear midpoint in the pitstop. Fourth, the lolipop guy didn't see ninja radio man.

So, plenty of blame to go around. You guys remember this video from Psych 101?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo[/youtube]
Same thing here - the team needed to let the guy know about the extra ninja.

andartop
andartop
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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ringo wrote: The outcome would have been different if a contender was in the other ferrari is all.
That's exactly the point everybody is making but you seem to have missed: the outcome would have been exactly the same had any other driver been in Massa's place, precisely because Lewis went for a gap that wasn't there. End of story.

As for Massa racing or not racing Alonso, you made a point that Massa was actually covering Alonso. Team orders or no team orders I think it was clear for all to see that at that point of the race they were actually racing each other.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft

rifrafs2kees
rifrafs2kees
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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Ringo, I think it's about time you left this one alone. Hamilton, whom I support, was a victim of his own aggressiveness. I won't say he was wrong for putting his nose in there but it was a risky move and he came out on the losing end. Race is a risk vs reward thing. Had he pulled it of, he'd have been our genius. At the start of the race drivers are for the most part singularly concerned with not losing positions and Massa is no different. Now saying that Massa may have intentionally compromised Hamilton's race this time as may be in 2008 is akin to saying Hamilton hesitated in Valencia to make sure Alonso got caught out by the safety car.

And I don't believe for a second that Massa would voluntarily risk his race for Alonso. I don't even think he likes the guy. They're team mates..that's it

Shrek
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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weren't we just talking about reducing the number of men over the wall sometime within the 2 weeks?
Spencer

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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Pup wrote: So, plenty of blame to go around. You guys remember this video from Psych 101?
I have nothing to add beyond what has already been said but I'd like to point out that I counted 15 passes AND saw the gorilla.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

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ecapox
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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"I have a problem wth my engine. I have a problem with my engine." = "I'm gonna slow down and let mark past me."

You hypocrites who lambasted Ferrari need to do the same to redbull. Actually they should be penalized also 100k and brought in front of the wmsc. Most of You that complained about Ferrari were redbull fans as well. How does it now feel that your team "broke the rules" just like Ferrari? Cheaters. Cheaters. The fia is in cahoots with rbr. They just want Webber to win.

See, doesn't that sound stupid? If Ferrari had done thus we would have seen 30+ pages of you haters crying foul. :roll:

andrew
andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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ecapox wrote:"I have a problem wth my engine. I have a problem with my engine." = "I'm gonna slow down and let mark past me."

You hypocrites who lambasted Ferrari need to do the same to redbull. Actually they should be penalized also 100k and brought in front of the wmsc. Most of You that complained about Ferrari were redbull fans as well. How does it now feel that your team "broke the rules" just like Ferrari? Cheaters. Cheaters. The fia is in cahoots with rbr. They just want Webber to win.

See, doesn't that sound stupid? If Ferrari had done thus we would have seen 30+ pages of you haters crying foul. :roll:
So explain the wild strategy that Red Bull gave Vettel that helped him to 4th place?

There is no conspirocy to answer here as one does not exist in this instance.

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ringo
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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rifrafs2kees wrote:Ringo, I think it's about time you left this one alone. Hamilton, whom I support, was a victim of his own aggressiveness. I won't say he was wrong for putting his nose in there but it was a risky move and he came out on the losing end. Race is a risk vs reward thing. Had he pulled it of, he'd have been our genius. At the start of the race drivers are for the most part singularly concerned with not losing positions and Massa is no different. Now saying that Massa may have intentionally compromised Hamilton's race this time as may be in 2008 is akin to saying Hamilton hesitated in Valencia to make sure Alonso got caught out by the safety car.

And I don't believe for a second that Massa would voluntarily risk his race for Alonso. I don't even think he likes the guy. They're team mates..that's it
I've left the argument pages back. I said it was a racing incident and Hamilton put himself in the problem, but some think I'm blaming Massa 100% and Hamilton can't do no wrong in my eyes. It keeps the thread going when we put things in black and white. My opinion is in the grey area.

Alrite.. Now that we're done with that, let's talk about the the gorilla video now. I missed him the first time.
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ringo
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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ecapox wrote:"I have a problem wth my engine. I have a problem with my engine." = "I'm gonna slow down and let mark past me."

You hypocrites who lambasted Ferrari need to do the same to redbull. Actually they should be penalized also 100k and brought in front of the wmsc. Most of You that complained about Ferrari were redbull fans as well. How does it now feel that your team "broke the rules" just like Ferrari? Cheaters. Cheaters. The fia is in cahoots with rbr. They just want Webber to win.

See, doesn't that sound stupid? If Ferrari had done thus we would have seen 30+ pages of you haters crying foul. :roll:
It's called the possum engine map.
For Sure!!

rifrafs2kees
rifrafs2kees
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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Qoute from F1.com:
"Q: In terms of the championship battle, were your eyes then on Mark Webber and what he would be able to achieve?
LH: No, not too much. I have to try to collect my thoughts for the next race and try to help the team score as many points as I can, for either Jenson or myself, to win the championship. Even though my championship is not over yet, it is days like this and mistakes like I made today that make you lose a championship. But then you always have to say that the glass is half full, rather than being half empty."

I find the bit about Button and him refreshing.

ESPImperium
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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HRT fined $20,000 for a breach of the regulations: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1 ... ent-40.pdf

Rumor had it that there was a guest that wandered out in to the pit lane, but there are other rumors that it was an engineer that was leaning into the cockpit to change some settings and Sakon drove off with him sill adjusting something.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Italian GP 2010 - Monza

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ESPImperium wrote:HRT fined $20,000 for a breach of the regulations: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1 ... ent-40.pdf

Rumor had it that there was a guest that wandered out in to the pit lane, but there are other rumors that it was an engineer that was leaning into the cockpit to change some settings and Sakon drove off with him sill adjusting something.
You probably didn't see the video of the incident?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)