2016 Grand Prix of Brazil - Interlagos, 11-13 November

[ChrisDanger]

Was there an official statement from him or Mercedes, about the issue and how did they sorted? Was it driver error that was sorted or any hardware modification done? OR Are we taking the issue on the face value of a web site report and concluding it was all driver's fault.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/tech- ... es-850475/

[PlatinumZealot]

I think one of three things was very clear at all the safety car restarts; either:

1) Nico has no idea how to maximum a restart in order to pressure his opponent
2) he was very nervous about getting close to Hamilton
3) they had some kind of intra team agreement about not pressuring each other at restarts

Because Nico gave acres of room every single time - in stark contrast to Max or Checo who were pressuring the guy in front in order to get the jump. He seemed to be making it very easy for Lewis but maybe that's just him playing the percentages (which I guess is understandable).

It's because Nico didn't want to risk aquaplaning. We saw a great risk of aquaplaning when the drivers followed each other too closely in the uphill section. I would say he was being smart.

Smart it may well be.

What he needs to dispel a notion that he is not as good as Hamilton? Not really.

I'm sure he'll be happy with another second, or even third, place in Abu Dhabi - and it's not massively surprising given Keke won a championship with only winning a single race - but it won't do as much for his reputation as you might imagine beating Hamilton to a world championship in the same car would.

Then again, if Rosberg is realistic, he's probably already fessed up to not going down as one of the greats and thinks winning a world title - by hook or by crook - is still pretty darned good. If so, fair play, just nice to see drivers out to prove they're 'the man'.

Yes. He knows he is not the best, but that makes his championship even sweeter in a Jenson Button sort of way.

[basti313]

So here's something I don't understand:

From the very beginning of the race we saw Verstappen finding more grip at turn 3 by going around the outside.

(Much) Later in the race we heard Ricciardo being told about this and seeming to apply that advice.

But how come other teams didn't do this? I presume they didn't because they were clearly not using that line - other than Ocon.

Now I think it's good that others didn't benefit having not figured it out for themselves, but it just seems odd.

i was thinking the same too. I could imagine it is also due to the driver's 'faith' in themselves and 'dare'.
no driver is the same should be remembered too. Also, if you closely watch Verstappen's overtakes, you'll notice it wasn't as simple cut as 'just going another line'. It was more about reading the driver in front and then doing the opposite. Funny enough, i think it also plays more into the area of getting a 'benefit' of staying out of the spray and wake of the car in front.

*a lot of stuff that I do not want to read in detail*

that's the way i'm reading this anyway.

Other teams suggested this to their drivers. Just look at the safety car periods: In the first one Vestappen was waving everywhere, in the second one nearly all drivers were testing the grip away from the ideal line. Very good to see when you look at Ros, he took a full lap nearly constantly away from the line.
Ricciardo tried the outside line in T3 when trying to overtake Perez, but obviously was struggling with the grip.
So it seems no one else found the grip away from the line.

[Just_a_fan]

Hamilton his driving was excellent this year, just one real "f-up" in Baku, the rest it was more or less his car and mechanics that played a part, tricky clutch, ERS systems playing up and a blown engine. That's pure luck. But, that kind of luck is part of the championship.

Baku wasn't his fault either. The team messed up the engine mapping on Friday night. This resulted in performance degradation on Saturday and in the race - parc ferme so not allowed to change it. That's why he was struggling in qualifying and the race.

Rosberg inadvertently swapped maps whilst driving which is why he could sort it quickly. Hamilton had to try to figure it out from scratch during the race.

So Baku was a team issue, not a driver one.

I meant his crash in qualifying. Those points, P5 instead of a P2, even with a wrong map, maybe just those points he would need now.

The qualifying crash is in part due to the mapping error. Hamilton had been massively quick in FP and was struggling to find that performance in Q. Sadly, it was impossible owing to the mapping issue. He crashed because he was dragging his car around looking for lap time. He was frustrated by it all.

So, that was effectively down to the team.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Was there an official statement from him or Mercedes, about the issue and how did they sorted? Was it driver error that was sorted or any hardware modification done? OR Are we taking the issue on the face value of a web site report and concluding it was all driver's fault.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/tech- ... es-850475/

I didn't know Matt is official spokesperson of either Lewis Hamilton or Mercedes. Thank you for enlightening.

And by the information in that article, it proves it was not about Driver error. But crucially, the article doesn't come anywhere near to helping us understand, what work was done to now get an understanding of clutch temperatures and how the required torque is being adjusted with the new found method of understanding the clutch temperature.

The problem that the Mercedes drivers were facing was not related to how their hands are placed on the clutch paddle, but it was about, either having more than required or less than required torque which was creating the problem of either a slow start or loads of wheel spin. Both cases screwing up the starts.

[dans79]

Are you seriously comparing athletics to F1?

You have a screw loose if you don't think the drivers are athletes.

[TAG]

The problem that the Mercedes drivers were facing was not related to how their hands are placed on the clutch paddle, but it was about, either having more than required or less than required torque which was creating the problem of either a slow start or loads of wheel spin. Both cases screwing up the starts.

Mercedes said early on in the season that the core problem would not be able to be addressed until the off season. So anything else being done is the work Lewis has been referencing to make the best of a bad situation.

Maybe Rosberg, like Donald Trump has little hands? Now that's my analysis and I'm sticking with it.

[turbof1]

Was there an official statement from him or Mercedes, about the issue and how did they sorted? Was it driver error that was sorted or any hardware modification done? OR Are we taking the issue on the face value of a web site report and concluding it was all driver's fault.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/tech- ... es-850475/

I didn't know Matt is official spokesperson of either Lewis Hamilton or Mercedes. Thank you for enlightening.

And by the information in that article, it proves it was not about Driver error. But crucially, the article doesn't come anywhere near to helping us understand, what work was done to now get an understanding of clutch temperatures and how the required torque is being adjusted with the new found method of understanding the clutch temperature.

The problem that the Mercedes drivers were facing was not related to how their hands are placed on the clutch paddle, but it was about, either having more than required or less than required torque which was creating the problem of either a slow start or loads of wheel spin. Both cases screwing up the starts.

I find your low regard for Matt and his work at Motorsport disturbing. He and Piola put quite a bit of effort in studying the available material on the matter and doing that article. Either you truly have low regard towards it, or you trying to discredit on purpose the article to desparately prove Hamilton is not at fault here. Either way, Matt has more experience and more resources then you. You are not in a position to discredit him.

What you see here are optimisations of the paddles. Ergonomics are important here to get a correct feedback to the senses of your fingers, through the thick gloves. Having even the slightest wrong feedback can either result dropping the clutch too fast or too slow. This is different for every driver.

Second, Hamilton probably trained in the simulator to get the clutch to the correct temperature. They can load a very wide range of situations there to train the correct response to each of those situations, like hot conditions, cold conditions, second formation lap,... .

As you guessed it, it revolved around simulation work, both working on clutch temperature as well as adapting the paddles. This is something Hamilton could have done much earlier. He has been having bad starts since the beginning of the season, yet only acted on it after Japan. Note that Hamilton openly stated his dislike towards simulators before Baku.

The clutch is probably more sensitive than the competition. However, that does not mean it is outside the sphere of influence of the driver. Rosberg managed it much better, despite having the exact same clutch.

In the grand scheme of the title, this can be put down as details, but as it looks now these details prove crucial as he is set to loose the WDC by 5 points if he wins Abu Dhabi.

[Juzh]

Ricciardo tried the outside line in T3 when trying to overtake Perez, but obviously was struggling with the grip.
So it seems no one else found the grip away from the line.

Or confidence.

[TAG]

@turbof1 Mercedes also gave them gloves with thinner fabric in the fingers. It doesn't matter someone may do the math some day but I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that lost positions/points due to bad starts (keeping in mind that Rosberg had his as well) is a nice red herring explanation of why clearly Hamilton is losing the championship.

Rosberg is lucky because he's got little hands?

[turbof1]

@turbof1 Mercedes also gave them gloves with thinner fabric in the fingers. It doesn't matter someone may do the math some day but I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that lost positions/points due to bad starts (keeping in mind that Rosberg has his as well) is a nice red herring explanation of why clearly Hamilton is losing the championship.

Like I said, they are details. But we are ending with a WDC so close details play decisive roles. But don't get me wrong: Hamilton above else lost the WDC due mechanical issues.

Sometimes you have to wonder when you lost out on something, regardless if elements outside your control where involved: was I able to still get it if more effort was put in some aspects? That is a question Hamilton is dealing with now, and it will help next year.

Rosberg is lucky because he's got little hands?

if that leads to smaller genitals and making him think more with his head then with his ****, then that's a personal advantage for Rosberg .

Who knows, Hamilton his car might break down again in Abu Dhabi. If that happens the details will not play a decisive role anymore.

[TAG]

Believe me, I'm rally hoping that if he's going to win it, he wins it by beating Hamilton in the final race... it will go a long way towards squashing the endless winter discussions on why Rosberg wasn't worthy etc.

On the other hand, I expect to hear absolutely nothing from the peanut gallery should Rosberg's engine blow up.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

I find your low regard for Matt and his work at Motorsport disturbing. He and Piola put quite a bit of effort in studying the available material on the matter and doing that article. Either you truly have low regard towards it, or you trying to discredit on purpose the article to desparately prove Hamilton is not at fault here. Either way, Matt has more experience and more resources then you. You are not in a position to discredit him.

You are assuming too many things that are not there, when you say I am discrediting him to prove Hamilton is not at fault. The fact that Hamilton went to the factory and simulator says, he is missing something and wants to correct it. That is given.

Now let's just focus on the article and not the author. Here is the topic of the article.

Tech analysis: How Hamilton resolved his start issues

And here is what he says with regards to the topic...

The shape of the up-shift paddle has been revised slightly, increasing the distance between it and the clutch paddle (left arrow), whilst the previously flat surface of the clutch paddle (right arrow) has been exchanged for an elongated triangular wedge.

These changes may seem minor on the surface but tactility and ergonomy are huge factors in the individualization of each drivers working environment.

There is seriously nothing valuable to understand what went in Hamilton's exercise at the factory and simulator, except for the small design change that he has highlighted. For people who have been following this sport for a very long time and spend almost everyday here, articles like that brings no real value for technical discussion. If some new bees are reading that article, might they just end up believing that, the small design change has cured the problem.

This piece of thread started, when someone said, Lewis should have spent the time early in the season to fix the issue and then "ChrisDanger" quoted this article when I had a counter question about how are we concluding that it was all driver and not the equipment that is at fault.

There is nothing against Matt and I am just being critical of misleading title, or the information in the article not doing justice to the title of the article.

[Gaz.]

So here's something I don't understand:

From the very beginning of the race we saw Verstappen finding more grip at turn 3 by going around the outside.

(Much) Later in the race we heard Ricciardo being told about this and seeming to apply that advice.

But how come other teams didn't do this? I presume they didn't because they were clearly not using that line - other than Ocon.

Now I think it's good that others didn't benefit having not figured it out for themselves, but it just seems odd.

Hamilton, Hulk, Ocon & Alonso were regularly driving on wet lines along with Verstappen. What I find weird is that you'd think that all 22 drivers would do this by default. Raikkonen & Vettel did on the infield section but rarely at T3 and the other outside sections.

Did anyone catch the start of Massa's accident? How did he end up on the outside of T14? I missed the start of the on board replay and the subsequent shots didn't show the start of the sequence.

[Moose]

@turbof1 Mercedes also gave them gloves with thinner fabric in the fingers. It doesn't matter someone may do the math some day but I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that lost positions/points due to bad starts (keeping in mind that Rosberg had his as well) is a nice red herring explanation of why clearly Hamilton is losing the championship.

Rosberg is lucky because he's got little hands?

No, the explanation is simple - Hamilton has lost 28 points to an engine failure in Malaysia, plus a bunch earlier in the season with low-down the grid starts due to either engine failures, or penalties for engine failures.