2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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nzjrs
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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McMika98 wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 07:50
I appreciate people trying to find a silver lining and blame the poor result on setup issues. But its a gut wrenching wake up call as Max said. They had 3 practice sessions to identify the issue. Max in FP1 and FP2 was very content but then Ferrari caught both Merc and Redbull by surprise in Fp3.
Redbull now is in danger of being the third best team.
No silver lining necessary because we don't start with the same assumtions as you.

Neither are we looking for a silver lining, it's not needed because we don't wildly oscillate between extremes, make insane pronouncements, and then struggle to incorporate race weekend observations into an illogical understanding of F1.

The effective performance curves of the top 3 are non perfectly smooth and certainly highly dimensioned. They intersect with the tracks and one another in ways that thankfully differ now race to race.

Its a good season so far and fascinating to watch the engineers and drivers bend these surfaces every weekend.

Try not to wake up every Monday morning and forget the 8 months prior.
Last edited by nzjrs on 23 Sep 2019, 09:00, edited 1 time in total.

auv
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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rogazilla wrote:
22 Sep 2019, 23:57
There is no penalty to take the fuel. Don’t know if they will take a new turbo but no back to the grid Pu upgrade that we know of.
I guess, I was speaking about penalty for the new specification of TC :|
GhostF1 wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 03:37
auv wrote:
22 Sep 2019, 23:25
Marti_EF3 wrote:
22 Sep 2019, 22:18
Well, better than expected after a disappointing qualifying. It was a solid race, but they were slowing down to save tires, so no fair race pace comparision...

Let's see at Sochi where is supposed to arrive the new fuel and maybe some new bits to the PU. It will be a good test before Suzuka
Sochi is mostly power demanding type of track. If RBR failed to win in Marina Bay, then they probably will be lagging behind Ferrari and Merc in Sochi. I don't expect anything particular from new fuel or PU upgrades, except new nice grid penalties.
It's the 5th season of their engine development, and Honda is still unable to schedule upgrades without pushing teams into penalty zone.
That's not true. It was planned from the beginning to use more engines and take penalties to accelerate development for 2019 to launch an offensive in 2020. For a first year together, RBR and Honda have done well and I think Honda have more than proven their reliability gains, it's actually accurate to say they have been the most reliable this year out of all 4 manufacturers.
Sorry, what is not true? We do not know the whole story about what was planned or was not.

Every engine manufacturer accelerates deleopment and is offensive as possible. Currently Ferrari succeeded the most without any penalties. And while Mercedes clients have some troubles, factory team goes ok in terms of speed and reliability.

Honda is the most reliable? Well, it's a nice way to up your reliability by chaotic spamming new specifications through season. RBR and TR are already out of limits, and there are 6 more events to go.

Image

And what about perfomance? What if this reliability comes from lack of power? It's very disapponting that RBR was not fighting with Ferrari and Mercs in Spa and Monza. All we saw is Verstappen being unable to overtake Perez and Albon finished behind two Renault cars in Monza. This makes more questions than answers.

Bill
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Honda has nothing prove they won in Austria & Germany both engine tracks they were set for p2 in silverstone. The difference between all engine manufacturers is marginal

GhostF1
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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auv wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 08:54
rogazilla wrote:
22 Sep 2019, 23:57
There is no penalty to take the fuel. Don’t know if they will take a new turbo but no back to the grid Pu upgrade that we know of.
I guess, I was speaking about penalty for the new specification of TC :|
GhostF1 wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 03:37
auv wrote:
22 Sep 2019, 23:25

Sochi is mostly power demanding type of track. If RBR failed to win in Marina Bay, then they probably will be lagging behind Ferrari and Merc in Sochi. I don't expect anything particular from new fuel or PU upgrades, except new nice grid penalties.
It's the 5th season of their engine development, and Honda is still unable to schedule upgrades without pushing teams into penalty zone.
That's not true. It was planned from the beginning to use more engines and take penalties to accelerate development for 2019 to launch an offensive in 2020. For a first year together, RBR and Honda have done well and I think Honda have more than proven their reliability gains, it's actually accurate to say they have been the most reliable this year out of all 4 manufacturers.
Sorry, what is not true? We do not know the whole story about what was planned or was not.

Every engine manufacturer accelerates deleopment and is offensive as possible. Currently Ferrari succeeded the most without any penalties. And while Mercedes clients have some troubles, factory team goes ok in terms of speed and reliability.

Honda is the most reliable? Well, it's a nice way to up your reliability by chaotic spamming new specifications through season. RBR and TR are already out of limits, and there are 6 more events to go.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEufjxgWsAE ... name=small

And what about perfomance? What if this reliability comes from lack of power? It's very disapponting that RBR was not fighting with Ferrari and Mercs in Spa and Monza. All we saw is Verstappen being unable to overtake Perez and Albon finished behind two Renault cars in Monza. This makes more questions than answers.
Ok, I feel like a broken record on here. We do know whatw as planned, Horner and Tanabe are on record.. several times at the end of 2018 and at pre-seaosn testing this year saying they will take penalties if there is development that will provide a benefit on track. Helmut Marko actually said he told Honda "whatever you find that brings a gain, bring it to the track and we will take the penalty". The whole year is to push for a 2020 attack.
You're obviously a very casual fan and either don't watch the races or listen to the information on hand and just look at the results.
Is chaotic spamming new specs really a good description of what they have done? They've brought one extra Spec over the other 3 manufacturers.. and each spec has been a noticeable jump, not something that can be said for the others or more importantly, Renault. Yes they have all PU's still functional in their pool, no failures, some units have done 6 races, hard. As for Monza, did you intentionally ignore the rev limit debacle? As far as I can see, RBR have had far less overtaking due to lack of power issues so far than any time beforehand.

I think we are all aware of the used components. What you should note is that McLaren, Racing Point, Renault, Alfa and Williams, all their exceeded components are due to failures. RBR have all of the engines alive still, they utilise the Spec 2's in FP1 and 2!!!, no fails at a GP. Components are from bringing updates to the track for validation not just dyno testing. Same for Toro Rosso, the extra components have been due to accidents and they replaced the PU's as a precaution.

To actually ignore these points astounds me. To do so would insinuate you are a troll or just too casual and yet want to have a controversial opinion. Credit where credit is due, Honda are the only ones not to of spilt there guts on a track this year and this is without sacrifice to power, they have proved themselves several times at power biased tracks. That my friend, is a SIGNIFICANT improvement... I'm really not sure what else they could of done within one season to demonstrate they are progressing.. their development rate has been highly impressive.

auv
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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GhostF1 wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 09:11
Ok, I feel like a broken record on here. We do know whatw as planned, Horner and Tanabe are on record.. several times at the end of 2018 and at pre-seaosn testing this year saying they will take penalties if there is development that will provide a benefit on track. Helmut Marko actually said he told Honda "whatever you find that brings a gain, bring it to the track and we will take the penalty". The whole year is to push for a 2020 attack.
You're obviously a very casual fan and either don't watch the races or listen to the information on hand and just look at the results.
Is chaotic spamming new specs really a good description of what they have done? They've brought one extra Spec over the other 3 manufacturers.. and each spec has been a noticeable jump, not something that can be said for the others or more importantly, Renault. Yes they have all PU's still functional in their pool, no failures, some units have done 6 races, hard. As for Monza, did you intentionally ignore the rev limit debacle? As far as I can see, RBR have had far less overtaking due to lack of power issues so far than any time beforehand.

I think we are all aware of the used components. What you should note is that McLaren, Racing Point, Renault, Alfa and Williams, all their exceeded components are due to failures. RBR have all of the engines alive still, they utilise the Spec 2's in FP1 and 2!!!, no fails at a GP. Components are from bringing updates to the track for validation not just dyno testing. Same for Toro Rosso, the extra components have been due to accidents and they replaced the PU's as a precaution.

To actually ignore these points astounds me. To do so would insinuate you are a troll or just too casual and yet want to have a controversial opinion. Credit where credit is due, Honda are the only ones not to of spilt there guts on a track this year and this is without sacrifice to power, they have proved themselves several times at power biased tracks. That my friend, is a SIGNIFICANT improvement... I'm really not sure what else they could of done within one season to demonstrate they are progressing.. their development rate has been highly impressive.
You know, it is better to rely on facts, rather than numerous unverified speculations or even (un-)intentional disinformation from persons like Marko or Horner.
Doing so does not make me a "troll" or a "very casual fan". Everybody here can speak out any opnion they have.
Have a nice day.

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nzjrs
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Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 11:21
Location: Redacted

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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auv wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 09:39
GhostF1 wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 09:11
Ok, I feel like a broken record on here. We do know whatw as planned, Horner and Tanabe are on record.. several times at the end of 2018 and at pre-seaosn testing this year saying they will take penalties if there is development that will provide a benefit on track. Helmut Marko actually said he told Honda "whatever you find that brings a gain, bring it to the track and we will take the penalty". The whole year is to push for a 2020 attack.
You're obviously a very casual fan and either don't watch the races or listen to the information on hand and just look at the results.
Is chaotic spamming new specs really a good description of what they have done? They've brought one extra Spec over the other 3 manufacturers.. and each spec has been a noticeable jump, not something that can be said for the others or more importantly, Renault. Yes they have all PU's still functional in their pool, no failures, some units have done 6 races, hard. As for Monza, did you intentionally ignore the rev limit debacle? As far as I can see, RBR have had far less overtaking due to lack of power issues so far than any time beforehand.

I think we are all aware of the used components. What you should note is that McLaren, Racing Point, Renault, Alfa and Williams, all their exceeded components are due to failures. RBR have all of the engines alive still, they utilise the Spec 2's in FP1 and 2!!!, no fails at a GP. Components are from bringing updates to the track for validation not just dyno testing. Same for Toro Rosso, the extra components have been due to accidents and they replaced the PU's as a precaution.

To actually ignore these points astounds me. To do so would insinuate you are a troll or just too casual and yet want to have a controversial opinion. Credit where credit is due, Honda are the only ones not to of spilt there guts on a track this year and this is without sacrifice to power, they have proved themselves several times at power biased tracks. That my friend, is a SIGNIFICANT improvement... I'm really not sure what else they could of done within one season to demonstrate they are progressing.. their development rate has been highly impressive.
You know, it is better to rely on facts, rather than numerous unverified speculations or even (un-)intentional disinformation from persons like Marko or Horner.
Doing so does not make me a "troll" or a "very casual fan". Everybody here can speak out any opnion they have.
Have a nice day.
I would say "chaotic spamming" gave the game away sorry mate.

DChemTech
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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According to the Dutch GPtoday, Marko attributes the poor performance to the chassis being set too stiff this weekend, which compromised stability. This apparently comes from an error in the simulator, which put them n the wrong foot in terms of tuning.

https://www.gptoday.net/nl/nieuws/f1/25 ... -simulator (in dutch)

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nzjrs
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Another report said they didn't have all the parts necessary to undo this setup direction. Does anyone have a technical idea what would modulate the chassis stiffness in this way and not be a spare part at the track?

(assuming that is a correct interpretation of his words)

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Wouter
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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DChemTech wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 13:02
According to the Dutch GPtoday, Marko attributes the poor performance to the chassis being set too stiff this weekend, which compromised stability. This apparently comes from an error in the simulator, which put them n the wrong foot in terms of tuning.

https://www.gptoday.net/nl/nieuws/f1/25 ... -simulator (in dutch)
The Dutch site GPToday places articles that are a translation of a translation of a translation.
The final text therefore often differs greatly from the original article.
Often sentences are taken out of context and exaggerated to provoke reactions.

In this case it is better to read and / or translate original statements on AMuS.
"Wieso war Red Bull so schwach?" ... "Why was Red Bull so weak?"

If the Helmut Marko story is correct, then it is actually good news, because next time the RBR will be just as competitive again, especially with the upcoming upgrade. :wink:

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... apur-2019/
Last edited by Wouter on 23 Sep 2019, 13:59, edited 1 time in total.
The Power of Dreams!

DChemTech
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 13:53
DChemTech wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 13:02
According to the Dutch GPtoday, Marko attributes the poor performance to the chassis being set too stiff this weekend, which compromised stability. This apparently comes from an error in the simulator, which put them n the wrong foot in terms of tuning.

https://www.gptoday.net/nl/nieuws/f1/25 ... -simulator (in dutch)
The Dutch site GPToday places articles that are a translation of a translation of a translation.
The final text therefore often differs greatly from the original article.
Often sentences are taken out of context and exaggerated to provoke reactions.

In this case it is better to read and / or translate original statements on AMuS.
"Wieso war Red Bull so schwach?" ... "Why was Red Bull so weak?"

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... apur-2019/
true, it's grain-of-salt stuff...
but I'm too lazy to translate German :D

Capharol
Capharol
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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DChemTech wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 13:57
Wouter wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 13:53
DChemTech wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 13:02
According to the Dutch GPtoday, Marko attributes the poor performance to the chassis being set too stiff this weekend, which compromised stability. This apparently comes from an error in the simulator, which put them n the wrong foot in terms of tuning.

https://www.gptoday.net/nl/nieuws/f1/25 ... -simulator (in dutch)
The Dutch site GPToday places articles that are a translation of a translation of a translation.
The final text therefore often differs greatly from the original article.
Often sentences are taken out of context and exaggerated to provoke reactions.

In this case it is better to read and / or translate original statements on AMuS.
"Wieso war Red Bull so schwach?" ... "Why was Red Bull so weak?"

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... apur-2019/
true, it's grain-of-salt stuff...
but I'm too lazy to translate German :D
Red Bull vergeigte das Rennen bereits in der Fabrik. „Wir haben den Simulator mit falschen Daten gefüttert. Die Schläge waren nicht ausgeprägt genug, die Randsteine zu niedrig. Das hätten Max und die Ingenieure eigentlich sehen müssen“, unkte Sportchef Helmut Marko.

Der Simulator führte das Team in die Irre. Red Bull packte nicht die richtigen Teile ein, und konnte deshalb nicht ausreichend Anpressdruck aufsatteln. „Selbst Ferrari hatte mehr.“ Die bucklige Strecke destabilisierte das Auto. In der Qualifikation mehr als im Rennen, da dort mit höherem Tempo gefahren wird. „Im Rennen war das Auto besser.

Translation:
Red Bull already spoiled the race at the factory. "We fed the simulator with wrong data. The punches were not pronounced enough, the curbs too low. That would have Max and the engineers actually had to see that, "(joke comment) sports director Helmut Marko.

The simulator led the team astray. Red Bull did not pack the right parts and could not put down enough pressure. "Even Ferrari had more." The humpbacked track destabilized the car. In qualifying more than in the race, because there is driven at a higher speed. "The car was better in the race.

SF Engineer
SF Engineer
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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I think the team did a good job at minimizing the damage in Singapore.

It was clear quite early that tire temp. control was going to be a key to performance here (even more so than usual). I think all of the top teams knew what they had to do to get the tires switched on for quali (which wasn't the case in the first half of the year) but only Ferrari managed it perfectly. Both Max and Alex appeared to have their out laps compromised (albeit to a much lesser extent than the Mercedes) in Q3. To me it seems that the Ferrari puts the most energy into its tires and Mercedes the least, with RB in between.

I think many people underestimate the impact of set-up in F1. Because there are so many other factors contributing to the performance of an F1 car (the design level of the car, the ability to get the tires in their optimal working range, the driver's skill, traffic, etc.). However, at-circuit set-up changes have an extremely large impact on both the performance of the car for any given circuit condition (i.e. what percentage of the design optimum have you extracted from a mechanical perspective) and the driver's ability to deliver on that potential.To put it simply:

Vehicle Performance = Design level * extracted performance for a given condition * driver's ability to extract said performance

and

Actual Weekend Performance = Vehicle Performance * strategy * control * driver mentality, etc. * lady luck

I find it interesting (but inevitable) that people blame performance solely on one thing (driver, engine, new part X or Y), as it is always a result of multiple factors. Premier teams and their members, tend to get everything more or less correct and therefore fans tend to associate overall performance with performance of the car design, engine design or driver (and sometimes strategy), but it is not the case. For anyone who wants help understanding this I would suggest following or watching lower level series (Super Formula, Indy, F2, etc.), where everyone has more or less the same package and performance is spread by over a second from P1 to P Last and orders shuffling from weekend to weekend.

In the end some fans are upset because they were led to believe that this would be a winnable race (which it might have been had the correct set-up been applied, though that looks a bit of a stretch). I heard somewhere there is an equation for happiness and have yet to find a case where it is untrue, it goes something like this:

happiness = reality - expectation

I would suggest keeping that in mind while watching. :wink:

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etusch
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Good post @SF Engineer. Thank you.
I think we are sad because of expectations. For long time we were waiting for this third win in this track. But any win this year didn't come the tracks we expected.
In fact this is good that it shows condition of team. Podium is not enough in that level. It is obvious that engine is a good performance level but need a bit more. And a bit more to fight with ferrari if Ferrari is competitive. But of course they beat ferrari in östereich and silverstone with spec 3

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Sieper
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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My personal equation is even worse:

happiness = reality - expectation / very strict leniency for devation of the BEST result.

Also, the Book by Newey "How to built a racecar" also talks about this (extensively). Where they had weekends blow up in their face because of wrong choices, not car/driver ability.

In any case, it is inevitable, now my EXPECTATIONS are on the up again for next week. HAPPINESS will likely be out of the window again :-)

NL_Fer
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Godius wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 02:09
Interesting, in Verstappen his Friday interview with Ziggo (Dutch broadcaster) he did mention that they setup the car way more stiffer compared to last year. I'm surprised that they did not took the appropriate measures straightaway. Maybe they thought there was no need to because they set P1 time in FP1 and P2 in FP2 or maybe they simply could not like Marko is suggesting.
I remember Olav said, the changes they made during practice were not right, so they reverted back to the initial setup, they started fp1 with. No time for further adjustments i guess.