Red Bull RB11 Renault

[McMrocks]

the rear wing endplate,the front wing endplate,and the shape of nose(not tip) have something in common. Any guess?

yes. they are all made of carbon fibre! what is my prize?

wrong

Still think they're made of carbon fibre

[tranquility2k4]

Red Bull set to gain 0.75 - 1 seconds per lap simply from updating their car at Barcelona.. http://thejudge13.com/2015/04/27/radica ... barcelona/

I remember the judge did say in pre-season Jerez that RB would not reveal their true F1 car until Barcelona in May, so this prediction was correct. I'm wondering their nose can be 80mm shorter than even Mercedes...

[turbof1]

I believe Mercedes their nose is as short as possibly allowed by the rules. The rules are made as such that the nose has to reach at least as far the middle of the neutral section. I don't think Red Bull will be able to gain 80mm. Maybe 20-30mm.

You can however reshape the underside and sides of the nose, chipping away as much as possible. I'll also assume that the 0.75-1s has the engine update factored in.

[f1316]

I believe Mercedes their nose is as short as possibly allowed by the rules. The rules are made as such that the nose has to reach at least as far the middle of the neutral section. I don't think Red Bull will be able to gain 80mm. Maybe 20-30mm.

You can however reshape the underside and sides of the nose, chipping away as much as possible. I'll also assume that the 0.75-1s has the engine update factored in.

The article implies that the PU upgrade is not factored in, so the projected 0.75-1.0 s improvement is supposed to be all chassis based.

However it also puts a lot of emphasis on the short nose being the principal key to this and so if turbo is correct I begin to question the validity of these projections.

Interesting also because Ferrari still don't seem that bothered about nose design. Last year James Allison said it didn't make much difference and now , whilst they are apparently looking to introduce a shorter nose, they think they can't go super short and don't appear too worried about it.

[raymondu999]

Well the shorter nose has its benefits - but as Turbo has alluded to some time ago - I would think the bladelike sword nose has benefits too. All we're waiting for is the report on that Turbo.

[turbof1]

I believe Mercedes their nose is as short as possibly allowed by the rules. The rules are made as such that the nose has to reach at least as far the middle of the neutral section. I don't think Red Bull will be able to gain 80mm. Maybe 20-30mm.

You can however reshape the underside and sides of the nose, chipping away as much as possible. I'll also assume that the 0.75-1s has the engine update factored in.

The article implies that the PU upgrade is not factored in, so the projected 0.75-1.0 s improvement is supposed to be all chassis based.

However it also puts a lot of emphasis on the short nose being the principal key to this and so if turbo is correct I begin to question the validity of these projections.

Interesting also because Ferrari still don't seem that bothered about nose design. Last year James Allison said it didn't make much difference and now , whilst they are apparently looking to introduce a shorter nose, they think they can't go super short and don't appear too worried about it.

Finding 0.75-1s just through aero/chassis updates is very improbable these days. It would mean Red Bull got a lot of things wrong from the start. Given their reputation, I wouldn't count on them being so far off that they can gain up to 1 second. I would have to say the implication is wrong, and that the engine is factored in.

Concerning the nose: the reference point of going short is Williams:

Basically, Williams is right at the limit of the regulations. Any shorter/thinner anywhere and the nose is illegal.

Red Bull is not far off:

(you'll have to mentally make that hand dissapear)

Red Bull can still chip away some of the length, and can also make it thinner. However finding through that 0.75-1s is not realistic. Also chances are Red Bull will never be able to reach the example of Williams, since they sacrificed some of the of the crash structure for the S-duct.

The alternative would be to go to a W06 nose, which I highly doubt they'll do. That'll require changing almost every aero appendage on the car: front wing, underchassis vanes, bargeboards, etc. It would also require a completely new designed chassis since the bulkhead will have to be angled different. And even then I sincerely doubt it'll bring anything near 0.75.

[f1316]

I agree with you.

However, to play devil's advocate, the article is saying they *will* change every appendage on the car; it's saying what we've seen so far is basically last year's car with some modifications and this Barcelona update is basically a whole new 2015 car.

I find that doubtful but it would explain how you can find that chunk of time from chassis alone, as we've seen fairly large steps in performance year on year.

[turbof1]

I agree with you.

However, to play devil's advocate, the article is saying they *will* change every appendage on the car; it's saying what we've seen so far is basically last year's car with some modifications and this Barcelona update is basically a whole new 2015 car.

I find that doubtful but it would explain how you can find that chunk of time from chassis alone, as we've seen fairly large steps in performance year on year.

if they do make a switch the Mercedes nose, emphasis on if, it'll be the single biggest effort in formula one since a very long time during the season. I think the only thing coming somewhat close is red bull's massive update on the back of the car in 2012.

However, this statement is impossible:

The all new RB11 design hangs completely on a ‘short nose’ philosophy, and when revealed in Barcelona it will be around 80mm short than any other nose currently deployed on the grid.

Unless of course we are talking about a loophole in regulations.

[Blackout]

Yes it seems imposible to make that nose shorter*
Maybe thei're making it thinner and higher like the STR*

*But didnt James key say that STR is bringing a 4cm shorter nose too
And STR passed the tests relatively easily with the Melbourne nose...

Compared to the RB11 (first) iteration, the STR 'finger' seem to be thinner and the nose higher --> more space under the nose on paper

[SectorOne]

One article actually said it will be shorter then even the Mercedes nose!
Now thats a loophole if true.

[turbof1]

Yes it seems imposible to make that nose shorter*
Maybe thei're making it thinner and higher like the STR*

*But didnt James key say that STR is bringing a 4cm shorter nose too
And STR passed the tests relatively easily with the Melbourne nose...

Compared to the RB11 (first) iteration, the STR 'finger' seem to be thinner and the nose higher --> more space under the nose on paper

http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/14/79/55/26/f1-bar11.jpg

Notice that Toro Rosso's bulkhead is quit a bit lower, which makes it a bit easier to reduce the length to a minimum. It's not as simply as "if Toro Rosso can do it, so can Red Bull", because with a high bulkhead, your front crash structure is angle differently and less able to pass the crash test.

Can red bull go a bit shorter, a bit thinner? Probably; they might even surpass Toro Rosso. But it will take a LOT more effort.

Ferrari has the same issue; Allison told they could reduce the length of the nose, but not as much as Williams for instance.

[Thunder]

I read the Tj13 Thing but i really doubt it will be 80mm shorter than the shortest Nose on the Grid. More like 80mm shorter than the current RB one. That or Newey found something....

[dren]

if they do make a switch the Mercedes nose, emphasis on if, it'll be the single biggest effort in formula one since a very long time during the season. I think the only thing coming somewhat close is red bull's massive update on the back of the car in 2012.

Please explain that a bit more. I don't see how a change to the Mercedes nose is such a huge undertaking. The nose does have some interaction with the front wing but it does not dictate how every areo bit on the car operates.

A change of the nose to anything new is somewhat of an undertaking just because of the crash testing required, but it isn't the biggest effort in formula 1 since a long time. We saw Mercedes do that last year around this time of the season.

I would expect accompanying updates to under chassis turning vanes and possibly t-tray aero bit tweaks if they updated their nose.

When comparing the Red Bull and Mercedes nose now, there really isn't a huge difference in what they are doing.

Either way, I am highly skeptical of a 1.0s gain from aero upgrades.

[turbof1]

Please explain that a bit more. I don't see how a change to the Mercedes nose is such a huge undertaking. The nose does have some interaction with the front wing but it does not dictate how every areo bit on the car operates.

It's quite a bit more then just "some interaction" but we'll get to that.

First of all, notice that the bulkhead sits a lot high at the red bull chassis then the mercedes chassis. One particular key element to be STRUCTURALLY able to fit a nose like the Mercedes/Lotus one, one that can pass the crash tests, is to have a lower front bulkhead, so that the nose has to angle less agressively down in the short space between bulkhead and the neutral section of the wing. This effectively means that Red Bull will have to make changes to the chassis. Now you can't just leave the drivers without a chassis to race, so you need to make new chassis' altogether, which on itself is a huge undertaking, left alone redesigning one on top of that.

Second, the nose itself will pose a problem to crashtest, even with adapted chassis. It's very, very short and thin. It'll take both time and resources to get it correct without adding too much weight.

Last but not least, the aerodynamic consequences. Ask anybody how important the nose is aerodynamically and they'll tell you "one of the most important things on the car". The nose creates quite few vortices which play a role in clean flow to the floor and splitter, which has a turn on effect on the diffuser. A small change upsets the complete airflow structure and requires redesigning everything behind it: underchassis vanes, brake ducts, splitter, etc. The nose also interacts with Y250 vortices, which are also one of te most important vortices.
Next to that, notice that a Mercedes nose allows only very small pylons. Pylons have been increasingly used as turning vanes the last few years and team wants to maximize the size of them. Going from big pylons to small pylons will force the team to complete rethink how they want redirect airflow underneath the chassis.

It's the biggest undertaking since a long time, during a season (I want to stress on that: during a season). This is certainly doable if you are able to work a whole year on the project, with the car only being produced during the winter. But imagine trying to apply this during the season: you'd be spending months resources, cfd time, windtunnel time, etc to properly fit a different type of nose cone. Then it still needs to be validated on track.

[PlatinumZealot]

Maybe the entire nose cone can be shorter relative to the front chassis template if you modify the suspension. It would be impossible to get it shorter relative to the leading edge of the front wing though.