Formula One's Engine Crisis

[FoxHound]

They seem to have a department in Milton Keynes also.

Building 9? That's Red Bull's engine research programme.

[Facts Only]

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/657689020181422084

Never going to happen its just more posturing I'm sure. I think Bernie is essentially using it as a scare tactic to force other engine changes because that engine already exists people might think it is a viable alternative.

Also why would the smaller teams be happy paying £6m for a 2.2 V6 Turbo when Indycar teams get that for 1/24th of that price?

Lastly if Bernie took 30 seconds to turn on an Indycar race he'd hear that they aren't any louder.

[NL_Fer]

They seem to have a department in Milton Keynes also.

Building 9? That's Red Bull's engine research programme.

Check out linkedin, several engineers state they are employed at Ilmor Milton Keynes.

[sgth0mas]

I dont typically like what bernie has to say...but i love this comment from him.

"When asked for his thoughts that the four engine manufacturers currently involved in F1 - Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda - would be disappointed considering the money they have spent on the current generation engines, Ecclestone said: "The money they spent, the R&D they spent - it was for their road cars.

"They got more out of it for their road cars they say."

[Just_a_fan]

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/657689020181422084

I think this is just Bernie trying to strong arm Mercedes and Ferrari. Everyone knows that he is friends with the top men in Red Bull and is doing everything he can to help them divorce Renault and step in to a decent engine.

The question is: what will Bernie and the FIA do if Mercedes, Ferrari and Honda say "if you do that we're out of here"? Formula 1 needs Mercedes, Ferrari and Honda more than it needs the petulant drinks company.

[ClarkBT11]

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/657689020181422084

I think this is just Bernie trying to strong arm Mercedes and Ferrari. Everyone knows that he is friends with the top men in Red Bull and is doing everything he can to help them divorce Renault and step in to a decent engine.

The question is: what will Bernie and the FIA do if Mercedes, Ferrari and Honda say "if you do that we're out of here"? Formula 1 needs Mercedes, Ferrari and Honda more than it needs the petulant drinks company.

Exactly what I thought why don't Mercedes and Ferrari throw a Red bull and threaten to quit.

The cost for the v6 twin turbo is estimated at 7m? Will they have to pay for speparate Kers unit as well which will increase costs?

[Manoah2u]

this 2.2 l v6T engine is complete bullocks and won't happen.

for crying out loud, having friggin indycar engines in F1 cars is the ultimate nail to the coffin. It's not gonna work either way though. Theres a reason these F1 engines cost as much. You can't just think spooning in an indy engine will work at all.
It's just another story on the many stories on the engines.

2.2 Turbo engines? there's simply no way that it's possible. You can't simply 'enlarge' the engine displacement of the current engines from 1.5 to 2.2 'just like that' without having the need of a total engine overhaul. They're designed and constructed with 1.5 in mind, with the most precise construct possibilies.
The currently constructed F1 engines are built with the intent of being used for quite a longer time than just from 2014 to 2016, too. It would KILL the sport and many suppliers to simply put it in the trash can after the research and work put in it.

no way that Merc is gonna accept that, no way that Ferrari is gonna accept that, and no way Honda will. At the same time, Renault is - surely they are - working behind the scenes to get a proper 1.5 V6T engine up and running. Another manufacturer who will definately not accept a sudden mental plan of 2.2 turbos after all thats happened now.

The only thing i could see happening is Cosworth coming in fast-tracked 2016 with some help from bernie.
but i hardly think RedBull would be interested in them, as it would no doubt be worse than the Renault powerplant or '15 Ferrari engines.

So i'm saying the show will be over soon and it'll be RedBull with Renault and Toro Rosso with Ferrari in 2016.

The only problem that imho will persist is that Renault is surely not coming back into F1 to be beaten by RedBull.
So, you can betcha that they're gonna get a b-spec Renault engine as of 2017 like Williams with Merc for example.

That, would still leave RedBull with the need of a engine. So, again, Cosworth could be their only option with the idea of a 2017 comeback.

[Just_a_fan]

Cosworth haven't made an engine worth a damn in F1 for 20 years; why do people still think they're any good/provide a rescue option? The DFV was a great engine, no doubt, and the HB/Zetec-R of the mid-90s were competitive. After that, they've been a shadow of their former glories. If I were RedBull, I'd have the Renault lump over a Cosworth lump any day of the week.

[Manoah2u]

yes, but if Renault decides they're not having anymore of your BS then they can raise the finger and they're without engine supplier, and if neither merc, ferrari or honda ar willing to supply them, then what u gonna do?

[bill shoe]

RB running to Honda seems improbable given RB's dissatisfaction with the superior Renault engine performance. We know with fairly high confidence that:
1. RB is obligated to pay Bernie a penalty that is large (even by RB standards) if they leave F1 at the end of 2015 rather than their contractual agreement of 2020.
2. Honda agreed to the FIA and Bernie that they would provide engines to 1 team in 2015, up to 2 teams in 2016, and up to 3 teams in 2017.

Perhaps RB's ask for Honda engines is just RB going thru the motions to avoid paying Bernie the penalty. This way RB can say in court: "We asked for engines from Honda, and Honda had a contractual obligation with Bernie to supply a second team in 2016, but Bernie did not enforce that contractual obligation on Honda, therefore we were left without an engine and we can't be held accountable to Bernie for leaving F1 early when Bernie didn't even enforce his own contractual obligations that would have allowed us to have an engine."

For RB maybe this is a low-risk thing to try. If Honda says no then RB have an excuse to the court why they should not have to pay the fine to Bernie. If Honda says yes then RB simply backs out at the last second without signing the final document, and nothing lost to RB for trying this angle.

[dans79]

If Honda says yes then RB simply backs out at the last second without signing the final document, and nothing lost to RB for trying this angle.

This is the kind of thinking that got them to where they are now. They can't continue to play childish games like this. At some point they need to start acting like adults, or the rest of the grid will completely alienate them. Look at the polls that are going around, a lot of the F1 fan base is already tired of their games.

[Slife]

If Honda says yes then RB simply backs out at the last second without signing the final document, and nothing lost to RB for trying this angle.

This is the kind of thinking that got them to where they are now. They can't continue to play childish games like this. At some point they need to start acting like adults, or the rest of the grid will completely alienate them. Look at the polls that are going around, a lot of the F1 fan base is already tired of their games.

Really ? In some other forums I frequent, I get the impression that they think Mercedes/Ferrari should supply RB with parity engines. From my understanding Red Bull brought in alot of new fans, who are probably more supportive of Red Bull.

[Juzh]

This is a post from F1f on the proposed 2.2 V6

For those who don’t know, Mark Gallagher is referring to Chevy and Honda Performance Development. Twin turbo, 2.2L V6 engines is the IndyCar spec. I’m sure Chevy and HPD would love to sell engines to some F1 teams, since it is widely believed they lose money on the cost capped, engine leases to IndyCar teams.

They never release official figures, but the most common reported numbers are that the engines make between 750 to 850 hp, depending on whether they are set up for a road/street course versus a super speedway. I’m pretty confident that the engines could easily make over 900 hp. There isn’t a maximum number of engines that a driver is allowed to use each season, but there is a minimum distance that an engine must be run before it can be replaced without a penalty. I believe that number was 2,500 miles for the 2015 season. My rough math is that would equate to eight or nine F1 race weekends, so it should be possible to tune them for higher performance and still last 4 or 5 races. Also, Indycar uses E85 (ethanol) fuel, and the engines would instantly generate more power running on gasoline/petrol.

Like I said before I’m sure Chevy/Ilmor would sell their engines. I bet HPD would too, but I don’t know if Honda Japan would allow it. Supposedly Cosworth also has an Indycar V6 engine design, but could never get a manufacturer to fund the testing and production of it.

If all of the above is true, these 2.2l could prove quite competitive. Especially if there's an additional simple KERS system added as has been talked about. There's still a question of fuel ofcourse as there's noway they can make it race distance on 100 kg.

[Just_a_fan]

The only way the alternative will be competitive is if the FIA gives them some preferential rules.

[mep]

The only way the alternative will be competitive is if the FIA gives them some preferential rules.

They could lower the minimum weight. The heavy hybrid cars will then run into problems. Also raise the max fuel allowed per race.