2018 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, May 24-27

[simieski]

What about Verstappen overtake over Sainz with cutting the chicane? For me it was a clear overtake outside the track and yet another poker-face from stewards.

Just the previous lap when Verstappen was about to complete a clean pass on Sainz, Sainz cut the chicane and didn't allow the pass to happen, but retained the place and didn't give up. So what Vertappen did was, he took the place back and even he would have completely cut the chicane, there would not have been penalty. Still, Verstappen had two wheels on track. It was that simple.

What is your logic behind this? Numerous times a leading car has cut a chicane/corner and retained the lead with no penalty as long as they have a token gesture lift. But overtaking completely off the track normally results in giving the place back/penalty

[FW17]

If you had physical degradation tyres then you'd have 2 or 3 times the amount of marbles off-line. Or if you had minimal degradation tyres then you'd have 0 stop races with very slow lap times!

What is a very slow laptime?

[Andres125sx]

What about Verstappen overtake over Sainz with cutting the chicane? For me it was a clear overtake outside the track and yet another poker-face from stewards.

Just the previous lap when Verstappen was about to complete a clean pass on Sainz, Sainz cut the chicane and didn't allow the pass to happen, but retained the place and didn't give up. So what Vertappen did was, he took the place back and even he would have completely cut the chicane, there would not have been penalty. Still, Verstappen had two wheels on track. It was that simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUbrMzaOCuU

Thanks for posting the video. Here we can see in first incident (Sainz cutting the chicane), Max let no space to Sainz, so the spanish driver is forced to cut the chicane. OTOH on the second incident, Max is free to not cut it, but can´t because he´s going too long, wich is the reason he reach that point first.


IMO only Max did something punishable here, but since it was Monaco and Max, I assumed there would be no penalty

[sosic2121]

If you had physical degradation tyres then you'd have 2 or 3 times the amount of marbles off-line. Or if you had minimal degradation tyres then you'd have 0 stop races with very slow lap times!

What is a very slow laptime?

Still, I think this is wrong way to go. If you try to overtake, you ruin your tires. If you just drive, they last forever.
6 races and 1 stop is stil the optimal strategy.
Maybe FIA should ditch "must stop" rule.

[Bill_Kar]

Watching the video frame by frame he actually gets his front left wheel onto the yellow kerb at the same time as his rear end is still on track, then as the rear tyres "cut the chicane" his fronts are back over the kerbs so he possibly never had all four wheels outside the track limits, if you could see the track limits, at any time.

I first thought he had indeed cut the chicane too but on closer inspection maybe he didn't

You are correct. But, even if he was slightly off track's limit, he didn't cut the chicane tactlessly, so I would give it to him, as I give it to Sainz for the first bit of scrap as well, he was forced off the track.

I know, Max has done a lot of things, but we shouldn't maligned him for everything that happens.

[Bill_Kar]

On a similar note, what does sporting regulation dictate on off track's limit topic?

Since ages, if you are in front and you cut the track, you are able to retain your position, but you can't do it again.
If you are behind, you can't overtake using more space than what is defined as being track (the white line). You are obliged to give the position back.
What happens if you're forced off the track?

[ripper]

There's an interesting interview to Ocon, i only found it in italian.

https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 85261.html

"al termine del Gran Premio è stata inevitabile una domanda in merito a quel momento, ed il francese ha risposto facendo riferimento alla sua posizione di Young driver Mercedes: “Sono pilota Mercedes, devi chiedere al boss. Non serviva a niente fare la lotta con lui, anche lui era davanti e aveva già fatto il pit, aveva gomme nuove.. è così“."

quick translation:
They questioned him about the Mercs overtake and he replied: "I'm a Mercedes driver, you have to ask the boss. It was useless to fight with him (Hamilton), he was ahead of me and he already pitted, he had new tyres..."

A domanda ancora più specifica sulla possibile presenza di una regola non scritta per cui, in caso di lotta per la posizione con un pilota ufficiale del team anglo-tedesco, debba dare loro strada, il giovane talento ha sorriso in maniera inequivocabile, lasciando intendere un fondo di verità in questa insinuazione: “Eh, magari…“.

Quick translation:

They did a more specific question about a non-written rule where he has to let a Mercedes driver pass. Ocon smiled unequivocally hinting that there's some truth and answered: "Well, maybe...".

This part is much more speculating than the first one, but I'm seriously questioning how deep can be this kind of partnerships (Mercedes-FI, Ferrari-Haas, Redbull-Toro Rosso) and how much they are harmful to F1.

[FW17]

If you had physical degradation tyres then you'd have 2 or 3 times the amount of marbles off-line. Or if you had minimal degradation tyres then you'd have 0 stop races with very slow lap times!

What is a very slow laptime?

Still, I think this is wrong way to go. If you try to overtake, you ruin your tires. If you just drive, they last forever.
6 races and 1 stop is stil the optimal strategy.
Maybe FIA should ditch "must stop" rule.

Which ever tyre compound is chosen, the driver cannot push for the reason that temperatures go out of its operating windows. The compound needed is one which does not go out of the window for the length of the stint.

Pirelli cant say that their tyres last 30 laps but only if driven without being attacked.

It does not matter if they bring one compound for the entire year, but atleast one should withstand the abuse of a f1 car

[Phil]

I think they pretty much simplified the sporting regulations to give more power to stewards making judgement calls and less armchair experts throwing the rules at them after races... it doesnt mean the old and expected rules (one defensive move etc) are out the window, but it’s up to the stwards now to enforce them.

Overall, i agree with this approach and i would generally prefer less penalties than more.

[Restomaniac]

There's an interesting interview to Ocon, i only found it in italian.

https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 85261.html

"al termine del Gran Premio è stata inevitabile una domanda in merito a quel momento, ed il francese ha risposto facendo riferimento alla sua posizione di Young driver Mercedes: “Sono pilota Mercedes, devi chiedere al boss. Non serviva a niente fare la lotta con lui, anche lui era davanti e aveva già fatto il pit, aveva gomme nuove.. è così“."

quick translation:
They questioned him about the Mercs overtake and he replied: "I'm a Mercedes driver, you have to ask the boss. It was useless to fight with him (Hamilton), he was ahead of me and he already pitted, he had new tyres..."

A domanda ancora più specifica sulla possibile presenza di una regola non scritta per cui, in caso di lotta per la posizione con un pilota ufficiale del team anglo-tedesco, debba dare loro strada, il giovane talento ha sorriso in maniera inequivocabile, lasciando intendere un fondo di verità in questa insinuazione: “Eh, magari…“.

Quick translation:

They did a more specific question about a non-written rule where he has to let a Mercedes driver pass. Ocon smiled unequivocally hinting that there's some truth and answered: "Well, maybe...".

This part is much more speculating than the first one, but I'm seriously questioning how deep can be this kind of partnerships (Mercedes-FI, Ferrari-Haas, Redbull-Toro Rosso) and how much they are harmful to F1.

I mentioned this a while ago.

IIRC as you say Haas have pulled the same trick for Ferrari and Toro Rosso have for Red Bull.

It's BS and it makes a joke of the racing.

[siskue2005]

There's an interesting interview to Ocon, i only found it in italian.

https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 85261.html

"al termine del Gran Premio è stata inevitabile una domanda in merito a quel momento, ed il francese ha risposto facendo riferimento alla sua posizione di Young driver Mercedes: “Sono pilota Mercedes, devi chiedere al boss. Non serviva a niente fare la lotta con lui, anche lui era davanti e aveva già fatto il pit, aveva gomme nuove.. è così“."

quick translation:
They questioned him about the Mercs overtake and he replied: "I'm a Mercedes driver, you have to ask the boss. It was useless to fight with him (Hamilton), he was ahead of me and he already pitted, he had new tyres..."

A domanda ancora più specifica sulla possibile presenza di una regola non scritta per cui, in caso di lotta per la posizione con un pilota ufficiale del team anglo-tedesco, debba dare loro strada, il giovane talento ha sorriso in maniera inequivocabile, lasciando intendere un fondo di verità in questa insinuazione: “Eh, magari…“.

Quick translation:

They did a more specific question about a non-written rule where he has to let a Mercedes driver pass. Ocon smiled unequivocally hinting that there's some truth and answered: "Well, maybe...".

This part is much more speculating than the first one, but I'm seriously questioning how deep can be this kind of partnerships (Mercedes-FI, Ferrari-Haas, Redbull-Toro Rosso) and how much they are harmful to F1.

The haas jumped out of the way for Vettel last season on 2 occasions and no need to mention about TR and RBR... this is the first time FI has done this like forever. Moreover I think this is good news for smaller team as they survive on the grid and don't think it is harmful for F1 at all.

[NathanOlder]

What about Verstappen overtake over Sainz with cutting the chicane? For me it was a clear overtake outside the track and yet another poker-face from stewards.

Just the previous lap when Verstappen was about to complete a clean pass on Sainz, Sainz cut the chicane and didn't allow the pass to happen, but retained the place and didn't give up. So what Vertappen did was, he took the place back and even he would have completely cut the chicane, there would not have been penalty. Still, Verstappen had two wheels on track. It was that simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUbrMzaOCuU

"That simple...clean pass...two wheels on track"?

Dunno what vid you were watching..

- but the actual vid you posted..
1stly shows a blatant 'block pass' by Verstappen, whereby Sainz had to 'bail out' across the chicane, or be collected.. (rammed),
& then for his cut-pass, Verstappen has 3 wheels off-track, & well over the the chicane-boundary paint..

Max-rules.. are there to seen.. in application, once again..

Agree with this one. Sainz was forced off, he had no where to go. As for Max's pass, the white line that identifies the edge of the track isn't there. But when it is there it is always 'track-white line-kerb' So I would say Max was all 4 wheels off the track.

[F1NAC]

Just the previous lap when Verstappen was about to complete a clean pass on Sainz, Sainz cut the chicane and didn't allow the pass to happen, but retained the place and didn't give up. So what Vertappen did was, he took the place back and even he would have completely cut the chicane, there would not have been penalty. Still, Verstappen had two wheels on track. It was that simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUbrMzaOCuU

"That simple...clean pass...two wheels on track"?

Dunno what vid you were watching..

- but the actual vid you posted..
1stly shows a blatant 'block pass' by Verstappen, whereby Sainz had to 'bail out' across the chicane, or be collected.. (rammed),
& then for his cut-pass, Verstappen has 3 wheels off-track, & well over the the chicane-boundary paint..

Max-rules.. are there to seen.. in application, once again..

Agree with this one. Sainz was forced off, he had no where to go. As for Max's pass, the white line that identifies the edge of the track isn't there. But when it is there it is always 'track-white line-kerb' So I would say Max was all 4 wheels off the track.

Wasn't this similar situation like Alonso vs Perez in 2013. When perez dove into chicane and forced ALO off . Then stewards decided that ALO needed to give it to Perez

[NathanOlder]

There's an interesting interview to Ocon, i only found it in italian.

https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 85261.html

"al termine del Gran Premio è stata inevitabile una domanda in merito a quel momento, ed il francese ha risposto facendo riferimento alla sua posizione di Young driver Mercedes: “Sono pilota Mercedes, devi chiedere al boss. Non serviva a niente fare la lotta con lui, anche lui era davanti e aveva già fatto il pit, aveva gomme nuove.. è così“."

quick translation:
They questioned him about the Mercs overtake and he replied: "I'm a Mercedes driver, you have to ask the boss. It was useless to fight with him (Hamilton), he was ahead of me and he already pitted, he had new tyres..."

A domanda ancora più specifica sulla possibile presenza di una regola non scritta per cui, in caso di lotta per la posizione con un pilota ufficiale del team anglo-tedesco, debba dare loro strada, il giovane talento ha sorriso in maniera inequivocabile, lasciando intendere un fondo di verità in questa insinuazione: “Eh, magari…“.

Quick translation:

They did a more specific question about a non-written rule where he has to let a Mercedes driver pass. Ocon smiled unequivocally hinting that there's some truth and answered: "Well, maybe...".

This part is much more speculating than the first one, but I'm seriously questioning how deep can be this kind of partnerships (Mercedes-FI, Ferrari-Haas, Redbull-Toro Rosso) and how much they are harmful to F1.

The haas jumped out of the way for Vettel last season on 2 occasions and no need to mention about TR and RBR... this is the first time FI has done this like forever. Moreover I think this is good news for smaller team as they survive on the grid and don't think it is harmful for F1 at all.

Exactly, look at it in a drivers perspective, Ocon wants a Mercedes seat next year, he left Monaco with a good result and Toto would have been pleased with him not getting in the way of Lewis.
Same goes for Toro Rosso. Gasly will do all he can to impress Marko/Horner.
Haas/Ferrari just the same.

[NathanOlder]

"That simple...clean pass...two wheels on track"?

Dunno what vid you were watching..

- but the actual vid you posted..
1stly shows a blatant 'block pass' by Verstappen, whereby Sainz had to 'bail out' across the chicane, or be collected.. (rammed),
& then for his cut-pass, Verstappen has 3 wheels off-track, & well over the the chicane-boundary paint..

Max-rules.. are there to seen.. in application, once again..

Agree with this one. Sainz was forced off, he had no where to go. As for Max's pass, the white line that identifies the edge of the track isn't there. But when it is there it is always 'track-white line-kerb' So I would say Max was all 4 wheels off the track.

Wasn't this similar situation like Alonso vs Perez in 2013. When perez dove into chicane and forced ALO off . Then stewards decided that ALO needed to give it to Perez

I dont remember that, I can only recall Perez passing Button there and then tangling with Kimi there.