It would mean more tyreload, but wheelspin at almost every corner where you have a lack of grip will hurt the tyres way more than when you have more downfoarce / tyreload.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑08 Apr 2019, 11:51More downforce will also increase cornering speeds and the load on the tyres.
Considering that formula one cars are not made to slide, more downforce should mean more tyre wear.
Unless the car has a fundamental flaw, or the driver isn't very good, less downforce doesn't mean he'll spin his tyres all the time. It just means he'll have lower cornering speed and higher top speed on the straights.yener wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 15:17It would mean more tyreload, but wheelspin at almost every corner where you have a lack of grip will hurt the tyres way more than when you have more downfoarce / tyreload.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑08 Apr 2019, 11:51More downforce will also increase cornering speeds and the load on the tyres.
Considering that formula one cars are not made to slide, more downforce should mean more tyre wear.
Remember Nico's first win with the Merc W03. He had to be really gentle with his tyres. That was a fast car, but it also had a really narrow operating window to get the tires working right.
I am not sure about that. When I compare it with motogp, for example, in qualifying they generally changes only rear tyre for a secont attempt. When I think about it, it feels a bit strange in the first sight that they are braking very hard. So front tyres also must be in bad condition. But during braking bike is only on front tyre and blocking front means fall. but rear tyre handles big power and very fast acceleration until 300+ km/h speeds.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 16:26
And yes, different downforce levels have benefits and downsides in regard to tyre wear, it will also vary from circuit to circuit. But in Formula One I believe higher downforce creates more tyre wear.
So first you gave me an example to show that in MotoGP, despite the front tyre handling braking forces almost by itself, they only change the rear tyre.etusch wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 18:47I am not sure about that. When I compare it with motogp, for example, in qualifying they generally changes only rear tyre for a secont attempt. When I think about it, it feels a bit strange in the first sight that they are braking very hard. So front tyres also must be in bad condition. But during braking bike is only on front tyre and blocking front means fall. but rear tyre handles big power and very fast acceleration until 300+ km/h speeds.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 16:26
And yes, different downforce levels have benefits and downsides in regard to tyre wear, it will also vary from circuit to circuit. But in Formula One I believe higher downforce creates more tyre wear.
With higher df with F1 car you can take turns with higher speeds. So there are two things to help front tyres. first; you need to down ( for example) from 300 to 110 instead of 100 km/h, that is lesser brake, second; higher df creats drag to help braking. ( This maybe neutrilised by shorter braking distance with same brake pressure but still lesser working time ). Maybe as 3d one; being more stable on braking compared to lesser df set-up.
Same things can be said for rear too more or less.
I cannot see any situation in which less downforce generates less tyre wear. This is given a certain laptime: any team tries to have as much downforce as they can afford considering the related drag. Yes, more force means more wear in theory, but the vast majority of the degradation, in terms of wear and temperature, comes from sliding. RedBull was always going for the higher downforce and I didn't see them once struggling for tyre wear.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 19:51So first you gave me an example to show that in MotoGP, despite the front tyre handling braking forces almost by itself, they only change the rear tyre.etusch wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 18:47I am not sure about that. When I compare it with motogp, for example, in qualifying they generally changes only rear tyre for a secont attempt. When I think about it, it feels a bit strange in the first sight that they are braking very hard. So front tyres also must be in bad condition. But during braking bike is only on front tyre and blocking front means fall. but rear tyre handles big power and very fast acceleration until 300+ km/h speeds.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 16:26
And yes, different downforce levels have benefits and downsides in regard to tyre wear, it will also vary from circuit to circuit. But in Formula One I believe higher downforce creates more tyre wear.
With higher df with F1 car you can take turns with higher speeds. So there are two things to help front tyres. first; you need to down ( for example) from 300 to 110 instead of 100 km/h, that is lesser brake, second; higher df creats drag to help braking. ( This maybe neutrilised by shorter braking distance with same brake pressure but still lesser working time ). Maybe as 3d one; being more stable on braking compared to lesser df set-up.
Same things can be said for rear too more or less.
Let's ignore that.
Then you proceeded to explain that in F1 higher downforce may cause less tyre wear because it helps with braking.
Yes, it will make for lower top speed and more drag, wich will make for shorter braking zones, but it also has the effect of increasing the load on the tyres during braking, which will result in a bit more tyre wear. I agree that for braking zones, higher DF will likely result in less wear, but that's not the only thing the tyres do.
As I said before, lower downforce will create situations that increase tyre wear, but it will also create situations where it helps with tyre wear. I believe that ultimately it will make for lower tyre wear than high downforce, but it's okay if you don't agree.
Load has affects on tyre life but not much as much as wheelspin or brakes' revers force on the tyre. When cruising wheels are just turning and affected by load only (except rear tyre, rear is relaxed during braking compared to front - regenarative brake or brake bias affects this )
The vast majority of degradation doesn't come from sliding, Formula One cars ideally don't slide. The vast majority of degradation comes from lateral and longitudinal forces being applied on the contact patch, and guess what? Those forces will increase with more downforce.matteosc wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 20:18I cannot see any situation in which less downforce generates less tyre wear. This is given a certain laptime: any team tries to have as much downforce as they can afford considering the related drag. Yes, more force means more wear in theory, but the vast majority of the degradation, in terms of wear and temperature, comes from sliding. RedBull was always going for the higher downforce and I didn't see them once struggling for tyre wear.
Load itself doesn't have a significant effect on tyre life, but more load will allow you to accelerate, corner and brake harder, which will affect tyre wear deeply.etusch wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 20:57Load has affects on tyre life but not much as much as wheelspin or brakes' revers force on the tyre. When cruising wheels are just turning and affected by load only (except rear tyre, rear is relaxed during braking compared to front - regenarative brake or brake bias affects this )
Cars makes a lot of braking in a stint (10-15 laps long ) or bloking and lost its life.
Yes, but with a significant better lap time... How can you compare two cars which are going at different speed to make this argument? At this point you can compare a car with downforce with one with lift and the one with lift is having surely less tyre wear. Hovercrafts have no tyre wear after all.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 21:22Load itself doesn't have a significant effect on tyre life, but more load will allow you to accelerate, corner and brake harder, which will affect tyre wear deeply.etusch wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 20:57Load has affects on tyre life but not much as much as wheelspin or brakes' revers force on the tyre. When cruising wheels are just turning and affected by load only (except rear tyre, rear is relaxed during braking compared to front - regenarative brake or brake bias affects this )
Cars makes a lot of braking in a stint (10-15 laps long ) or bloking and lost its life.
So I still mantain that more downforce = more tyre wear.
Being able to accelerate, corner and brake harder doesn't necessarily mean you'll have better laptimes. Do you even know what drag is?matteosc wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 21:26Yes, but with a significant better lap time... How can you compare two cars which are going at different speed to make this argument? At this point you can compare a car with downforce with one with lift and the one with lift is having surely less tyre wear. Hovercrafts have no tyre wear after all.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 21:22Load itself doesn't have a significant effect on tyre life, but more load will allow you to accelerate, corner and brake harder, which will affect tyre wear deeply.etusch wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 20:57
Load has affects on tyre life but not much as much as wheelspin or brakes' revers force on the tyre. When cruising wheels are just turning and affected by load only (except rear tyre, rear is relaxed during braking compared to front - regenarative brake or brake bias affects this )
Cars makes a lot of braking in a stint (10-15 laps long ) or bloking and lost its life.
So I still mantain that more downforce = more tyre wear.
I strongly disagree. Tyre degradation cannot be simply linked to downforce. Tyres in every car slide, as this is the way in which they apply a longitudinal force to the ground. The higher the downforce, the lower the sliding for a given longitudinal force to the ground.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 21:22The vast majority of degradation doesn't come from sliding, Formula One cars ideally don't slide. The vast majority of degradation comes from lateral and longitudinal forces being applied on the contact patch, and guess what? Those forces will increase with more downforce.matteosc wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 20:18I cannot see any situation in which less downforce generates less tyre wear. This is given a certain laptime: any team tries to have as much downforce as they can afford considering the related drag. Yes, more force means more wear in theory, but the vast majority of the degradation, in terms of wear and temperature, comes from sliding. RedBull was always going for the higher downforce and I didn't see them once struggling for tyre wear.
Formula One cars slide everywhere, if you don't understand that I think your theory of downforce = wear is flawed right from the start.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 21:22The vast majority of degradation doesn't come from sliding, Formula One cars ideally don't slide.