Red Bull RB18

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Stu
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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vorticism wrote:
05 Mar 2022, 02:52
Another image with the cover off. Looks like this continuous arm simply bolts through to the top of the chassis. No tethers visible either, on this arm

https://i.imgur.com/7H78YSg.png

The upper outboard attachments:

https://i.imgur.com/E4HQ7bj.png
These two shots are fantastic! Very interesting vertical mounting solution, it certainly looks like a leaf-spring in concept (with rear part of the upper A-arm being used as a radius rod). It would be very interesting to see what they doing at the hub, if(?) the steering axis mounts to the radius arm (as opposed to the ‘spring’) they would get an effect not dissimilar to the pushrod on upright when steering.
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Bandit1216
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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vorticism wrote:
05 Mar 2022, 15:29
Something like that but it depends on the spring's properties. Rough sketch --> Radius arm in blue, leaf spring in orange:

https://i.imgur.com/BDuCooj.jpg


Yes, that’s what I mean. Could be used for all kind of effects. Even toe difference on load.
But just suppose it weren't hypothetical.

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Stu
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Bandit1216 wrote:
06 Mar 2022, 12:19
vorticism wrote:
05 Mar 2022, 15:29
Something like that but it depends on the spring's properties. Rough sketch --> Radius arm in blue, leaf spring in orange:

https://i.imgur.com/BDuCooj.jpg


Yes, that’s what I mean. Could be used for all kind of effects. Even toe difference on load.
*cough* Passive DAS….
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

AR3-GP
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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PhillipM wrote:
05 Mar 2022, 20:41
POU achieved that by moving the pushrod up and down in lock, not through masses of travel.
The context of this was OP suggesting F1 cars don't have much suspension travel meaning any dive geometry would be inconsequential.

I suggested this is not true because last year teams were using POU to lower the car. F1 cars have a not so inconsequential amount of suspension travel built in. If they could lower the car and appreciable amount through the steering, then the effect has the same value when attempted through passive methods like the dive geometry and spring rates.

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vorticism
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Suggestions so far ITT for this 'longbow' that seem most logical to me. 1.) Simply a transverse leaf spring that allows the torsion & heave springs, and bellcranks, etc., to be lightened (trading the weight of metal parts for the weight of a potentially lighter carbon spring). 2.) Simply one large flexure with a negligible spring rate that allows them to omit some mounting point hardware and add a structural brace through the bulkhead.

If there are kinematic effects maybe they're just consequential. May be worth considering that their last car had this same device, except flipped to the other side of the chassis i.e. in both cars it corresponds with the location of the diagonal suspension rods. For whatever reason, they don't treat the other A-arms the same way. No benefit to having all four arms treated this way? What about the effects of lateral/spanwise forces (from cornering or pullrod loads) on a leaf spring?

Image
𓄀

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chrisc90
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Im sure some of the newer Volvo's have a plastic leaf spring across the front suspension. Maybe RB is doing something similar with that!

Henk_v
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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My 1998 Volvo V90 has a plastic (fibreglass/polyesther) leaf spring at the rear axle

SmallSoldier
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Very nice pictures of the T-Tray area, as well as the strakes below the floor on the RB18

Image

Image

Vía Butch_on_Racing
Last edited by SmallSoldier on 06 Mar 2022, 23:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Airshifter
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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vorticism wrote:
06 Mar 2022, 19:01
Suggestions so far ITT for this 'longbow' that seem most logical to me. 1.) Simply a transverse leaf spring that allows the torsion & heave springs, and bellcranks, etc., to be lightened (trading the weight of metal parts for the weight of a potentially lighter carbon spring). 2.) Simply one large flexure with a negligible spring rate that allows them to omit some mounting point hardware and add a structural brace through the bulkhead.

If there are kinematic effects maybe they're just consequential. May be worth considering that their last car had this same device, except flipped to the other side of the chassis i.e. in both cars it corresponds with the location of the diagonal suspension rods. For whatever reason, they don't treat the other A-arms the same way. No benefit to having all four arms treated this way? What about the effects of lateral/spanwise forces (from cornering or pullrod loads) on a leaf spring?

https://c4.staticflickr.com/6/5793/3116 ... 5313_k.jpg
I really hope the next testing session gives an opportunity for someone to get photos with more of the mounting detail. Those details might help us understand the possible answers to your last question.

AR3-GP
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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vorticism wrote:
06 Mar 2022, 19:01
May be worth considering that their last car had this same device, except flipped to the other side of the chassis i.e. in both cars it corresponds with the location of the diagonal suspension rods.
It's possible the simple explanation is just that in order to have any room to pass it through the chassis without interfering with the rocker cradle, the rocker cradle and the "longbow" must be on opposing sides of the chassis.

I like the statement used in the previous page. This "longbow" may be one of those "hidden in plain sight" inventions that is quite beneficial.

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ringo
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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SmallSoldier wrote:
06 Mar 2022, 20:52
Very nice pictures of the T-Tray area, as well as the strakes below the floor on the RB18

https://i.imgur.com/700AJzr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/v4YSiHK.jpg

Vía Butch_on_Racing
The tea tray or lack there of is very interesting.
I am not sure if this is in relation to allosing the car to come closer to the ground while running more rake.
But with a tea tray it will limit a raked car from putting the tunnels as close as possible.
And this explains why they have a spring under that keel. They will squeeze the front into the ground then pivot the rear about this point to bring more of the car closer to the ground.
For Sure!!

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Stu
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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ringo wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 05:42
SmallSoldier wrote:
06 Mar 2022, 20:52
Very nice pictures of the T-Tray area, as well as the strakes below the floor on the RB18

https://i.imgur.com/700AJzr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/v4YSiHK.jpg

Vía Butch_on_Racing
The tea tray or lack there of is very interesting.
I am not sure if this is in relation to allosing the car to come closer to the ground while running more rake.
But with a tea tray it will limit a raked car from putting the tunnels as close as possible.
And this explains why they have a spring under that keel. They will squeeze the front into the ground then pivot the rear about this point to bring more of the car closer to the ground.
Is there a spring in their keel? The picture that was leaked on Twitter (claiming to be a shot of the Red Bull) was the Haas.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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ringo
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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right it was the Hass. But looking on that slot at the front and the different panels.. I would suspect a spring and damper maybe in there. The car will ride on that keel quite often. The slot may have sensors or camera or it may be to allow adjustment.
For Sure!!

Henk_v
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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SmallSoldier wrote:
06 Mar 2022, 20:52
Very nice pictures of the T-Tray area, as well as the strakes below the floor on the RB18

https://i.imgur.com/700AJzr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/v4YSiHK.jpg

Vía Butch_on_Racing
It seems that the strakes dont go into the tunnel at all, but immediately to the side of the floor. Alfa romeo seems to have a similar solution.

Seems like they made very sure the camera was covered in flowviz too.

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Re: Red Bull RB18

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vorticism wrote:
06 Mar 2022, 19:01
Suggestions so far ITT for this 'longbow' that seem most logical to me. 1.) Simply a transverse leaf spring that allows the torsion & heave springs, and bellcranks, etc., to be lightened (trading the weight of metal parts for the weight of a potentially lighter carbon spring). 2.) Simply one large flexure with a negligible spring rate that allows them to omit some mounting point hardware and add a structural brace through the bulkhead.

If there are kinematic effects maybe they're just consequential. May be worth considering that their last car had this same device, except flipped to the other side of the chassis i.e. in both cars it corresponds with the location of the diagonal suspension rods. For whatever reason, they don't treat the other A-arms the same way. No benefit to having all four arms treated this way? What about the effects of lateral/spanwise forces (from cornering or pullrod loads) on a leaf spring?

https://c4.staticflickr.com/6/5793/3116 ... 5313_k.jpg
It could give a bit of spring action, but then the "bow" already needs some load, the first moments of movement are almost effortless.
I suspect it's more to do with construction. The normal fixing points of a suspension have to very strong and even re-done ever few GP's due to the load and abuse, especially the top brackets. When using a continues rod, there is a lot less force on the tub and inserts, not only making it considerably lighter, but also easier to maintain. The only downsides are that if you need to replace it, for instance, after a small touch of the walls in Q2, there is more work to be done plus you have a little less control over it's precise movements.