McLaren MP4-12C

[CHT]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNIc3HWqvbs[/youtube]

12C is also slower in the EVO test

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Berating journos is missing the point.


The car isnt as purist as Mclaren want you to belive. Ferrari kept its gizmos optional, Mclaren ought to learn and do so in future instead of being arrogant enough to suggest their is only 1 way to drive a car properly...with TC.

[RacingManiac]

I think its not just TC, without a LSD it needs to make the brake actuated version works even when ESP is off...and if they programmed it to do torque vectoring and what not all the time, I think thats why the car is not doing the driver's bidding when you are trying to hoon the car....

[Richard]

I see the McLaren brand as being uncompromising high tech, function over style. Their legendary white corridor and obsession with being optimal without compromise symbolises that.

Their optimal car uses computer controlled power distribution, so that's what you get. As RM pointed out, the car would not move with that turned off.

So what does "TC off" really mean on these cars? If you want the keep the variable power distribution to help you through a corner then that would be TC. The diffs are computer controlled so you'd use the TC functions to do that otherwise the diff would fail. Cars with AWD rely on TC to vary the power distribution.

In my SLK there is an "ESP off" button. I once asked a Merc tech about what that really did and answer is that it allows me to spin the wheels. There are still a lot of TC type functions going on under the hood to make the car drivable.

There is a hidden engineering menu that really does turn everything off, it is intended for use on a dyno. A friend with an SLK used that mode in a huge empty car park. There was a lot of wheel spinning, lots of power going to odd places, the car never pointed where he wanted, and often failed to stop. That's what true "TC off" gives you.

So perhaps the other companies are the arrogant ones who give a car a false "TC off" button that should be called "spin and drift button but don't kid yourself, the TC is still fully active otherwise this would be undrivable"

[alelanza]

OK, so journalists claim cars are better with TC turned off? Can someone explain to me why F1 teams are so desperate to sneak TC onto their cars?

Because the two things are completely different.

[CHT]

OK, so journalists claim cars are better with TC turned off? Can someone explain to me why F1 teams are so desperate to sneak TC onto their cars?

Because the two things are completely different.

Due to the high rev of a f1 car, TC will really help drivers to floor the throttle early without having to worry about spinning.

[Richard]

OK, so journalists claim cars are better with TC turned off? Can someone explain to me why F1 teams are so desperate to sneak TC onto their cars?

Because the two things are completely different.

Due to the high rev of a f1 car, TC will really help drivers to floor the throttle early without having to worry about spinning.

Any car with a well tuned TC will be faster than no TC because TC distributes power to the wheels with the most grip.

To turn it off completely would would make the car slower than optimum, and probably undrivable on high powered cars.

[RacingManiac]

OK, so journalists claim cars are better with TC turned off? Can someone explain to me why F1 teams are so desperate to sneak TC onto their cars?

Because the two things are completely different.

Technology is not, but the goal is. F1 cars(or racing in general) has the fairly simple minded goal of going around a predetermined track in the shortest time possible. Anything to help achieve that end is better. Wheel spin is power wasted not propelling the car forward, TC used to maximize traction and keep within that optimum slip. In road car is less simple. There is the aspect of safety, since you can't guarantee all the driver can manage the power, so you let computer do it and help inexperienced or over zealous to not kill/hurt themselves and sue the company. At the same time when people go out and have a drive they don't just necessarily want to go as fast as possible, maybe they feel like doing a bit of automotive ballet/figure skating with their tail out....

Like Richard's post mentioned though, while the whole idea of turning off all "ESP" is something people seem to be keen on for a performance car. Modern sports car, unless you are driving a true track day car like a Caterham or Ariel Atom or something, have much more electronics in them than just the plain old traction control and ESP. In a 458 when you turn the ESP/TCS off, your MR shocks still works with the computer to control the chassis movement, your e-diff(mechanical with electronic actuation, as opposed to McLaren's brake emulated system) is still metering power left and right with the input from the controller monitoring the car, if you have a Porsche 911 Turbo or something, your active engine mount is still doing something, a McLaren's Kinetic system will still be controlling roll stiffness...blah blah blah....They all still work to flatter the driver to make them feel like the driving god, even if the rear tire is now smoking and the car is sideway....

[Lurk]

They also said that.

More troubling for Mclaren are reports magazine testers found the handling "unrewarding", the brakes laking feel and the ride "citroen like" (yikes) at regular road speeds. at fast road speeds the MP4 "...suddenly feels all at sea, with only moderate loadings to deal with, the strange Citroen like ride reactions are back and the chassis feels out of tune with road''

Very strange for a car who was fully acclaimed in March... Do McLaren totally change its setup or is it something else?

Where is that quote from?

Every review I've seen has said how great the ride and handling are (ESP-off notwithstanding).

It was from this blog which was quoting Evo.

I've seen the car, I sat in it, I've heard it and seen other people drive in it.

And to me it is an unfinished product. The interior is made out of beautiful materials but it has been put together very poorly. It rattels, some plastics used under the leather are too soft so you can dent them.

You should try a Ferrari. On client car they even aren't capable to apply leather correctly. Any journalist say that because it is Ferrari, but they really are badly assembled...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I hear from the Showroom models in parklane that not only do the Ferrari models have a "airfix glue" scent, if you follow the scent closely you will even see some of the remnants of said adhesive.

Point is the 458 will never be used every day. If it is, it will require bloody good TLC.

The Mclaren is the unkown, as it's 12C is a first in terms of a larger market audience. I really hope it does well, but its no shoe in for success. And if it misses targets McLaren will be knees deep in the brown stuff.

[marcush.]

I have talked to companies working for Mclaren and they are absolutely afraid of Ron Dennis guys who seem to find no measure on their being nitpicky and detail freaks.

Wasn´t the ferrari " burning issue" glue/sealant related ?..Idon´t think Ferrari does anything comparable to Daimler /Audi or even Porsche in terms of validation
and quality ...Mclaren should have learned an awful lot in their time building the SLR ..where those principles were a daily issue for sure.You cannot be easier in quality with your top product,can you? I think this was a major issue for Mclaren to realise they could not build that sort of constant quality without throwing in enourmous man hours and still not satisfy the stuttgart guys...it hurts...

[munudeges]

This is probably the worst review of all. Ferrari must have paid them well for this.

The Fifth Gear review I find very suspicious. Plato seemed to have decided what he was going to say before he set foot in either car. Anyone who gives a long pause and says "There seems to be...." is a dead giveaway, and I'm even more suspicious when I see they gave them a right-hand drive car.

[thestig84]

I have talked to companies working for Mclaren and they are absolutely afraid of Ron Dennis guys who seem to find no measure on their being nitpicky and detail freaks.

That is spot on. The flooring company that did the MTC went out of business because Ron had them pull it up so many times.
Also the automotive guys pulled apart a 430 and while they thought it was a good drivers car were totally shocked buy the awful build quality. They reckoned the first 12c prototypes were built far better let alone the final version.

[alelanza]

Any car with a well tuned TC will be faster than no TC because TC distributes power to the wheels with the most grip.

To turn it off completely would would make the car slower than optimum, and probably undrivable on high powered cars.

And i'd say that's half the answer to your earlier question, with the 2nd half dealing with the mclaren being a very expensive sports car.

...In a 458 when you turn the ESP/TCS off, your MR shocks still works with the computer to control the chassis movement, your e-diff(mechanical with electronic actuation, as opposed to McLaren's brake emulated system) is still metering power left and right with the input from the controller monitoring the car, if you have a Porsche 911 Turbo or something, your active engine mount is still doing something, a McLaren's Kinetic system will still be controlling roll stiffness...blah blah blah....They all still work to flatter the driver to make them feel like the driving god, even if the rear tire is now smoking and the car is sideway....

Very good point, and the whole deal boils down to how well the manufacturer is able to mix all safety/fun compromises. Do you make a go kart or a self-driven fuzzy logic software robot that rivals helicopter AI? From the opinions seen so far, it seems the macca is missing a bit go kart in it.

That being said this review is rather positive, not sure if it was already posted before: http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/Roa ... V8/257947/


It also does pretty well here, but i usually don't trust laptimes w/o knowing conditions/tyres etc.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/autoc ... track.html

[Richard]

i'd say that's half the answer to your earlier question, with the 2nd half dealing with the mclaren being a very expensive sports car.

So the two things are not completely different after all?