Driver styles/preferences

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timbo
timbo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:Yes - but really to minimise the lag between throttle lifting and brake application, and a few rare occurences where it would take too long to lift, but pure braking would be too much (for example, Lewis used to tap his brakes lightly while maintaining full throttle before each apex at Turn 8 Istanbul)
Not only. Applying throttle while you brake affects brake bias, sometimes a tad of throttle during heavy braking is used to make rear-end more stable.

Adrian Newby
Adrian Newby
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Joined: 07 Feb 2012, 23:05

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Adrian Newby
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Nando
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Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 02:30

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Late apex = late braking
Early apex = early braking
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Adrian Newby
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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That "early apex" bit triggered a memory.
Ciro Pabón wrote:Again, I feel forced to present the world famous...

Lessons on mid/late apex for beginners, by Ciro.

The line you adopt depends on several things. I quote myself.

NOTE: THERE ARE NO EARLY APEX CURVES UNLESS YOU WANT TO END LAST... or unless you want to read A LOT.

The mid/late apex depends on:

- the radius of the curve.
- the power of your car
- the grip of your car
- the distance between curves
- the sideslope and type of transition between curves

1. Radius

On a large radius curve you are fairly fast while taking the curve. Because you're fast at mid curve, there is no point in taking the late apex. So, mid apex it is.

On a small radius turn you gain little from mid corner speed. The time you spend around a tiny corner is small. It's small enough to make this an area you should despise when looking for shorter lap times.The faster you push the right pedal, the faster you'll get out of this area. You want exit speed and you want it now! Late apex, by all means.

2. The Power of your car

In command of a low powered car you want to point to a mid apex so you can carry all your meager speed through the curve, because the puny thingie engine you have in your back won't respond on exit.

On a high powered car you look for a late apex. So, you have a loooong exit ahead of you, while your glorious engine pushes you against the back of the car and gives you the fast exit you are looking for.

3. The grip of your car

A high grip car, with slicks the size of my posts is not the same as Green Powered Dude Reload electric car with bicycle tyres, sure. So, it will give you the ability to treat tight corners as if they were corners with larger radius. Conclusion: take the mid apex.

In a low grip car what's the use of trying to carry a high mid corner speed? You under steer as hell and end up without a racing line. You use raw power (hopefully) to "straighten" the car. Use a tight late apex corner. Yeah, I know this is confusing. You have to test that. Go.

4. The distance to the next corner

If there is 20 meters to the next corner, what do you gain from exit speed? Zilch. You take mid apex, get a fast midcorner and brake in time for the next one.

Now, if there is a long, long straight after the curve, by all means, take a late apex, get all the acceleration you can on exit and laugh happily. Believe me, there will be a HUGE difference when you can accelerate early between you and the mid apex guys at the next entrance.

5. Sideslope and transition.

Nobody understand when I explain this. Read about road design and we'll talk later.

I would be very grateful if any racer here can give me his opinions, these are mine. There might be other factors. Theoreticians, guys, please abstain. Those claiming that John Doe is a "natural late apexer", pleeeze... if that's the case, then John Doe is an ·/&=%$hole.

Adrian Newby
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Adrian Newby
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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So, if I may redirect the thread to its initial purpose of comparing the various driving styles of today's grid, as opposed to arguing over vehicle dynamics...

I found these two videos which were quite interesting:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXW8MAyNUps[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQJ9pUfah_k[/youtube]

Interesting that in the dry, Alonso (to my eye) seems to be more aggressive in terms of throwing the car into the corners - but the Ferrari has been set up with a slow steering rack all year, so that could be it. However Alonso also seems to be unwinding his steering on exit a lot quicker than he is winding it in on entry, which is interesting.

Another interesting comparison IMO is their approach to feel grip IMO. Look at the flat out leftie just before Juncao - I think it's called Mergulho? The differences are quite marked when they pass it around the 7 minute mark. (Alonso passes it slightly earlier because he's several seconds ahead of Vettel at this stage). Vettel seems to be playing with the steering to feel the grip, loosening and tightening it repeatedly, while Alonso seems more comfortable with a single sweep steering, but feathering the throttle.
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timbo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:Interesting that in the dry, Alonso (to my eye) seems to be more aggressive in terms of throwing the car into the corners - but the Ferrari has been set up with a slow steering rack all year, so that could be it. However Alonso also seems to be unwinding his steering on exit a lot quicker than he is winding it in on entry, which is interesting.
Alonso is the essense of manipulative driver. He is very precise with his inputs, and it does not look like he warns the car -- he just guides it as far as it's able to go. Maybe he prefers slower rack to be able to be more precise with his inputs. Of course he is also prepared to deal with any problems in the way, although he probably looses more time on it, than say Hamilton, who's always chasing the car.

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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timbo wrote:Alonso is the essense of manipulative driver. He is very precise with his inputs, and it does not look like he warns the car
Oh dear someone's caught the Rob Wilson/Peter Windsor bug :lol:
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timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:
timbo wrote:Alonso is the essense of manipulative driver. He is very precise with his inputs, and it does not look like he warns the car
Oh dear someone's caught the Rob Wilson/Peter Windsor bug :lol:
But it seems we talked about that already=)
Anyway, this line of though is indeed useful for description of drivers differences.

It is really interesting to watch a fast corner entry along the line of preceeding straight (like new Abbey or first corner in Magny-Cours). Massa and Hamilton have a bit of gradual entry. Schumacher and Raikkonen are alike and are very sharp on entry. Alonso would first throw the car to the outside and then turn in as sharp as Schumacher.

Nando
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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The reason he´s running a lot of steering rack is because he´s extremely aggressive with his inputs.

Having a "longer" rack dilutes some of that and doesn´t upset the car, unless you have a dynamic servo it can cause some problems in high speed direction changes, takes longer time to get the right steering lock for the corner then a "normal" rack.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

timbo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Nando wrote:The reason he´s running a lot of steering rack is because he´s extremely aggressive with his inputs.
Or you can say it's backwards. Obviously it suits his feel for the car.

Nando
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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timbo wrote:
Nando wrote:The reason he´s running a lot of steering rack is because he´s extremely aggressive with his inputs.
Or you can say it's backwards. Obviously it suits his feel for the car.
What do you mean by backwards?

A smooth driver does not need lots of lock because their hands won´t be all over the place.
The problem is you will have a more sensitive car when turning so you need to be a sensitive driver in terms of turning the wheel.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."